Confidential Guide Tens

[Rich Goodale]

Matt

Right on, Brother!

One of the great strengths of Portrush is its minimalist bunkering.  In addition to a relatively weak finish, Newcastle suffers from overbunkering, and too much foo foo on the bunkers they have.

Rich

[fred ruttenberg]

I have played all the courses. I do not think Pinehurst #2 belongs. It lacks the exceptional holes and memorability of the others.

[Ian Andrew]

Is anyone else surprised that Royal Country Down didn't get a 10

Lawrence

Lawrence,

It may be my first choice of places to play - but I wouldn't give it a 10. There are a couple of lesser moments on the back.

Voytek,

I've played 9, walked one more and really want to play the ones I have not.

Matt,

Potrush is great - but I could never see that course as a 10 - the end is disappointing after so many excellent holes.

I've always felt that a players ability had a lot to do with how they saw this course. The best players love it much more than average players.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have played all the courses. I do not think Pinehurst #2 belongs. It lacks the exceptional holes and memorability of the others.

I passed on my free round at #7 to walk a second straight round at #2 with strangers.  I am certain it is the only course in my life where I walked 36 straight holes with people I did not or care to know.  I could have done without the statue of Payne Stewart and do not believe in the Doak system but do think #2 is as fine a golf course as anywhere in the world.

[John Shimp]

Matt and others and Tom Doak,
What was Oakmont like when you did the Conf Golf Guide?  The clearing and way it looked/played a couple of opens ago were compelling.  Would it be a 10 today?  I've heard so many great things about the greens but haven't played it to know. 

Btw, I agree with the RCD voters.  To me, its better than #2 as much as I love it.
JS

[Walter Bart]

There are 18 Confidential Guides for sale on Amazon  tonight with  a price range of $383 to $995. Just one on Ebay at $995.

Should Christmas come early?


 

[PThomas]

Where does Oakmont fit?

a 9, same as Royal CD

I wonder if Tom didn't give them 10s because they are such very difficult golf courses ...

[Matt_Ward]

Ian:

I hear what you say -- my point was to suggest that before County Down can make the case for a perfect 10 -- the 18 at Dunluce / Portrush would likely have a better shot at achieving it.

I don't deny the last two holes are less than the ones that have come before it. But at least those two holes better FIT the actual landscape of the course. County Down has a Florida type hole at the 17th and the 18th is simply a massive overreaction by throwing everything but the kitchen sink at the players.

One other thought -- you mention the feelings of better players versus average players -- I have opined previously on Dunluce that the course has fairway widths that are too narrow and that the bordering rough -- beyond the secondary stuff -- is kept way to high and dense. I'm not a huge fan of Portrush's Dunluce until they can get a better handle on this overly restrictive set-up of the course. When high winds are blowing there the net result is a course that is boderline unplayable in a number of specific instances.

John S / Paul T:

Oakmont has dramatically improved since Doak's first assessment in "Confidential Guide." The style of the course has returned to its roots and the Fownes guiding principles have once again flourished because of attention to such detail and what the couse was meant to be.

I laugh when I hear people talk about the course's difficulty -- when you see the likes of what Crump originally envisioned for Pine Valley.

Oakmont is battle tested as any course to have ever hosted major championship play. With the exception of Sam Parks the roster of champions crowned at the course is one of the best for any regular rota member of such prestigious titles.

The combination of holes and the manner by which the course is routed is often ignored because the difficulty dimension is often spoken about. Oakmont doesn't have the one key hole above all others -- it's the cumulative totality of what you see there that makes the overall package so compelling.

I've been to evey major at Oakmont since my dad took me to the '73 US Open and I was amazed with the course back then. However, kudos to the club for dumping the inane tree proliferation that had only served to push the club in a directon far, far away from what the Fownes family truly meant it to be.

One other aspect worth noting -- kudos to Mike Davis of the USGA for creating appropriate conditions for the playing of the last Open there. The tees were moved up in spots to encourage bold play and the 17th at Oakmont sent a very loud and clear message that when top short par-4's are discussed in all of golf -- the 17th at Oakmont clearly belongs on the very short list of certifiable great holes.

In my mind -- Oakmont is absolute 10. No question about it whatsoever. Those feeling differently need to respond in greater detail and speak to the issue on whether they have been to the course since the major work was completed.

[Ally Mcintosh]

  I am not familiar with the history of the design of the 18th at RCD, but if you were to take away most of the bunkers lining the fairway, many would probably say the hole is boring and needs more going on.

Shane, you could read that sentence as agreeing that 18 is a bit of a let down...

I'm not that fussed about the bunkering on 18 even though it is overkill... I find the hole a slightly weak finisher because of its scale... For me, it feels hemmed in between two smaller dune ridges. It is tight, even claustrophobic which doesn't hold up with the rest of the course... For a finisher on an outstanding old style links, you could also argue that it is a tad disappointing that it doesn't finish with an expansive green just in front of the clubhouse with a great view of everything in front of you from the tee. (That said, the green is pretty great, extremely scary)...

17 I think has a great green complex, green site and approach shot values. Taking the lake out of the equation, the tee shot for me is just a little disappointing, having little to define it in the same way as the rest of the course....

But this is all measuring it against what is a near perfect experience and if these holes were not 17 and 18, you wouldn't hear a word from me...

[Mark Bourgeois]

I bet a discussion of #2's worst hole would produce far less (=no) consensus than many or even most other courses on the list.  #2 is not about flashy or signature holes.  It's a solid test all the way from 1 tee to 18 green.

Tom Doak's recent criticisms do bite, however.

How many on this board have played the only course he rated as being better than a 10?  I can think of three offhand and set the over/under at 5.

Mark

[Ronald Montesano]

And that 10+ course was.... (for the guideless among us...my copy currently resides at the Buffalo Public Library, until I can steal it.)

[Mark Bourgeois]

Ronald

I won't spoil the fun for you -- enjoy the hunt!

Mark

[Ed Tilley]

Shane:

You missed my point -- the greatness of Dunluce at Portrush is that it doesn't have to overdose the landscape with mindless bunkers on its finishing hole. How does having a minefield of endless bunkers at the concluding hole at RCD really add to its architectural qualities? Check out the holes that come before the final two holes at County Down and candidly you have a major melt down with the final two holes. Instead of the final two holes being a solid summary statement on what the day there has been you get a Florida type hole with the 17th and simply overkill with the finale.

Dunluce stays true to itself -- the character of the final two holes there is tied to what you have experienced prior with the holes that have come before it.

Look, I don't want to downplay the many top shelf virtues of County Down - it is a real gem of a layout but when the words perfection are uttered -- one has to see the final two holes there as being less rather than an equal or more compared to all the others.

Matt,

If RCD reversed the nines, i.e. the current 17 & 18 became 8 & 9, and the finishing hole was now the current 9th, would your opinion change. Same 18 holes, different order, best finishing hole in the world - would this make a difference?

I fail to see how you can say that the character of 17 and 18 at Portrush is not different from the previous holes. They are both extremely flat - the flattest on the course. 17 has an enormous bunker staring you in the face (if anyone can tell me of any hole that looks like that in the previous 16 I will stand corrected), and the flattest green site on the course - completely out of character with the previous 16. At 18 you drive off by a busy road to a very flat hole, with its minimalist 11 bunkers and heavy rough.

Ed

[Rich Goodale]

I bet a discussion of #2's worst hole would produce far less (=no) consensus than many or even most other courses on the list.  #2 is not about flashy or signature holes.  It's a solid test all the way from 1 tee to 18 green.

Tom Doak's recent criticisms do bite, however.

How many on this board have played the only course he rated as being better than a 10?  I can think of three offhand and set the over/under at 5.

Mark

Mark

If it is the course I think it is, I'll take the over.

[Mark Bourgeois]

You're not going to poll Tom Lehman, are you?

[Matt_Ward]

Ed:

Agreed.

Poor choice of words on my part -- the 17th and 18th are not as out of character and out of place at Dunluce / Portrush as the 17th and 18th at RCD. How's that for a bit more clarity? I also didn't say Portrush would get a 10 but that it stand a better chance at achieving it, in my mind, than RCD would. It's just that when you add in the Mountains of Mourne and the close proximity of Dundrum Bay you get a few more brownie points tossed into the heap for the New Castle layout.

Ed, c'mon, let's be a bit more forthcoming -- the 17th at RCD looks more like a hole you would see at a Florida course -- the pond is totally miscast and out of place. The 18th is simply a bombardment of bunkers because it looks like they ran out of other ideas.

In regards to switching the nines -- the issue would still remain -- there would be two holes that simply don't fit the character of what else is there.

No doubt the 9th would make for a grand closer -- but the issue I mentioned would still be present.

[Shane Wright]

Ed:

Agreed.

Poor choice of words on my part -- the 17th and 18th are not as out of character and out of place at Dunluce / Portrush as the 17th and 18th at RCD. How's that for a bit more clarity? I also didn't say Portrush would get a 10 but that it stand a better chance at achieving it, in my mind, than RCD would. It's just that when you add in the Mountains of Mourne and the close proximity of Dundrum Bay you get a few more brownie points tossed into the heap for the New Castle layout.

Ed, c'mon, let's be a bit more forthcoming -- the 17th at RCD looks more like a hole you would see at a Florida course -- the pond is totally miscast and out of place. The 18th is simply a bombardment of bunkers because it looks like they ran out of other ideas.

In regards to switching the nines -- the issue would still remain -- there would be two holes that simply don't fit the character of what else is there.

No doubt the 9th would make for a grand closer -- but the issue I mentioned would still be present.

DOES anyone know if RCD has considered switching the 9's or the history in this discussion.  It is the first thing we brought up after our 36 hole day at RCD this past JUNE?  I still hold firm that I like #18 at RCD but obviously it is not #9 which by the way, was IMPOSSIBLE the day we played it.  I'm not sure Tiger would have parred it.

[Sean Leary]

That would mean starting on a par 3.

[Shane Wright]

good point, but so does Lytham and St. Anne's

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

On the evidence of a trip last weekend,
Bally neal and Sand Hills both 10's
other opiniated input...Pinehurst#2...8.5 and Oakmont the same.
well perhaps a 9 for Oakmont. I have not played there since the tree culling.

[Sean Leary]

Matt Ward,

Do you think 16 fits? I really liked the hole but I thought it felt like a modern hole and did not fit with the rest.

[Anthony Gray]

  It would be hard for me to give any course a 10 which borders a neighborhood. That would eliminate Pinehurst. I prefer golf only. No houses no swimming pool.

[Tom Huckaby]

  It would be hard for me to give any course a 10 which borders a neighborhood. That would eliminate Pinehurst. I prefer golf only. No houses no swimming pool.

That would eliminate Cypress Point also - houses to the right of #2, behind #8.

Interesting standard... but does it need to be absolute?

TH

[Voytek Wilczak]

  It would be hard for me to give any course a 10 which borders a neighborhood. That would eliminate Pinehurst. I prefer golf only. No houses no swimming pool.

By that logic, you also eliminate TOC at St Andrews.

Believe me, it's a solid ten, houses notwithstanding.

[Matt_Ward]

Sean L:

#16 at what course?

Are you referring to Oakmont ?

Thanks ...