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Thomas MacWood

Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2008, 10:59:22 PM »
Everyone knows Hugh Wilson died prematurely but what is not known is what caused his death.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2008, 11:05:49 PM »
Tom,

One source claimed pneumonia, and given the February death and given Philadelphia winters at that time of the year, it seems a good likelihood.

Do you have any additional info?

Thomas MacWood

Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2008, 11:12:52 PM »
Mike
I have no additional info but I've read he suffered from unknown chronic health issues, which I asumed eventually did him in. Pneumonia is not a chronic problem but I suppose one might be more prone to it in weakended state.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2008, 11:18:19 PM »
Tom,

I agree.   I think it's sad that such a hale and hearty looking young man was chronically beset by unseen and somewhat mysterious health issues.   Tom P's comparison to JFK in that regard is an apt one.

One has to wonder if the most gifted among us aren't also usually cursed with a fatal achilles heel.   

The gods are nothing if not ironically humorous.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2008, 11:28:45 PM »
An interesting comparison to JFK, it has been reported he was afflicted with Addison's dease...while others say he was addicted to prescription drugs...maybe both or neither is true.

Does anyone know what was Wilson's chronic ailment?

Mike_Cirba

Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2008, 11:32:46 PM »
Tom,

I've never seen anything that defined his ongoing problems.

As seen with celebrities like FDR and JFK, disclosure of health issues and personal pecadillilos was largely eschewed by the press at the time, and there was a greater respect for personal privacy, for better or worse.

This is also possibly why Crump's suicide was never reported publicly as such, but other evidence leads me to believe that the family hid the truth from even his closest of friends like Tillinghast.   We don't need to debate this...I just find the writings of Tilly and others close to Crump at the time to be sincerely "in the dark" about the actual cause of death.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2008, 11:35:15 PM by MikeCirba »

TEPaul

Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2008, 05:40:00 PM »
"Everyone knows Hugh Wilson died prematurely but what is not known is what caused his death."

Mr. MacWood:

I suppose that depends on what is not known by whom about what caused his death. Hugh Wilson's death was the result of kidney failure.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2008, 09:26:15 PM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2008, 06:26:03 AM »
TE
Do you know what condition led to the kidney failure?

wsmorrison

Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2008, 07:08:47 AM »
Do you know what condition led to the kidney failure?

We know a fair amount, but do not see the point in releasing such information.  It certainly has little to do with our study.  Why does what condition led to Hugh Wilson's death matter?  He was chronically ill for many years and he died in early 1925.  By all accounts, he was a good man, beloved by many.  He may have designed one of the world's great golf courses (and a few others) and was instrumental in raising the standards and knowledge of turf grass throughout the world, but why such scrutiny? 

What value is there detailing everything about a man?  There is so much to learn about Wilson's work in agronomy and architecture that should be answered first.  Issues like a health history and cause of death is way down my list of things to learn about the man.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2008, 07:38:41 AM »
Wayne
Most historical biographies do not ignore health issues (see JFK). In this case Wilson suffered from chronically poor health and ultimately died prematurely. Wilson's design activities were limited; knowing what he suffered from is important information.

wsmorrison

Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2008, 09:19:15 AM »
Most historical biographies do not ignore health issues (see JFK). In this case Wilson suffered from chronically poor health and ultimately died prematurely. Wilson's design activities were limited; knowing what he suffered from is important information.

Who is writing an historical biography of Hugh Wilson?  I respect your willingness to pursue this information, I just don't think it is very important.  The result is influential since he died young and thus his impact was reduced.  But how he died is not useful information, or maybe it is better said that there are hundreds of other aspects of his work in golf that is much more interesting and useful.

TEPaul

Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2008, 09:51:25 AM »
Mr. MacWood:

Despite having occassional health issues that may or may not have led to his rather sudden kidney failure and death at 45 in early 1925, it seems from what we know about Hugh Wilson that he was a remarkably active man who apparently had a number of strong interests and a very active curiosity. His work and reputation in architecture and certainly agronomy are good examples.

I believe what you call his limited activities in golf architectural projects is merely the result of his other interests and other business---eg his business career in that he ran a family insurance company with his brother Alan.

But like the other well known "amateur/sportsmen" designers of his time he concentrated on a single project primarily (Merion), and there was likely a good reason for that---eg it was his own club and he was a designer who always refused to accept pay for his services. (I do not believe this is documentable but it is possible Hugh Wilson considered another paid career in golf architecture with William Flynn AFTER the USGA created the "exception" for professional golf architects vis-a-vis amateur playing status around the early 1920s. However, for various reasons that never happened. On the other hand, it may've been unlikely that he would ever have agreed to take pay for architecture since the spirit of "amateurism" around Merion was incredibly strong. Like C.B. Macdonald, Wilson just may've believed that a man like him should not ever be paid for anything to do with golf).

In the past on this website you've seemingly made light of this idea of and fact of the so-called "amateur/sportsman" designer of this most fascinating ERA in golf course architecture's history and evolution, at one point calling it 'my invention.' It is not my invention at all----it's an extremely identifiable fact and I believe a remarkably important one as an aspect in both how and why architecture evolved as it did during that interesting time from about the mid 1890s until WW1 when we do not find another project starting like those ones that were so famous and still are from that unusual group of men.

It seems to me your apparent lack of understanding of or appreciation of what that interesting group of "amateur/sportsmen" designers did, why they did it and how they did it, leds the likes of you and David Moriarty to underestimate what they did and how they did it. I think this is precisely why both of you seem to always search for someone else who must have basically done it for them. I think this is also why you both seem to imply that their clubs or those who knew them and worked with them have tended to "glorify" them and what they did.

I, for one, do not believe that was the case at all and for one to fail to understand that is to fairly misunderstand a most important time in golf course architecture and some of the people responsible for it.

Hugh Wilson apparently died of rather sudden and almost total kidney failure (some call it renal failure). I don't know that you are implying this but some connect kidney failure with chronic alcoholism. If that is what you are thinking, I can tell you that we have never seen a single iota of evidence that Hugh Wilson suffered from alchoholism of any degree at all. In my opinion, from all that we know about him including hundreds of his letters and letters to him he just did not seem to be that type at all.

I do see some striking parallels between Wilson and Kennedy, including a real similarity in appearance (in some early photos) the fact they both suffered from health problems throughout their lives, the fact they both died at the same early age, the fact they both had wonderful somewhat self-deprecating senses of humor, and even the fact that both went to Princeton (JFK as a first term freshman).
« Last Edit: October 06, 2008, 09:59:51 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2008, 10:36:11 AM »
Mr. MacWood:

From your consistent questions and concentration on the deaths and the later lives of some of these signficant architects of the first half of the 20th century it seems like you have something of a fixation on this aspect of their lives and biographies.

I, for one, would encourage you to continue to look into this aspect and perhaps develop your own conclusions in this context-----as to some unusual theme or statistic out of the norm with other professions, interests or art forms.

I don't think I personally would want to try to do some statistical comparison to other professions or art forms but it has always seemed to me that an unusual number of these famous designers of that era died or had the latter part of their lives end tragically in some way.

I suppose the question would then be, is there something about the world of golf architecture or its type of art form that might lead to this in some unusual way?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2008, 10:37:44 AM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2008, 02:59:43 PM »
Most historical biographies do not ignore health issues (see JFK). In this case Wilson suffered from chronically poor health and ultimately died prematurely. Wilson's design activities were limited; knowing what he suffered from is important information.

Who is writing an historical biography of Hugh Wilson?  I respect your willingness to pursue this information, I just don't think it is very important.  The result is influential since he died young and thus his impact was reduced.  But how he died is not useful information, or maybe it is better said that there are hundreds of other aspects of his work in golf that is much more interesting and useful.

Wayne
No one is writing a biography that I'm aware of.

Whoever wrote Wilson's obit in the Green Section Bulletin apparently felt differently. "From the time he was a young man until the day of his death he suffered from physical handicaps which periodically brought him much pain and distress." Clearly in the mind of the author his health issues were a major element of his life, and it is a fact his golf architectural career ended prematurely becasue it. Arguably his greatest accomplishment - the redesign of Merion - occured the year before he died, which adds to the tragic nature of the situation. God only know what he would have accomplished had not be stricken with this mysterious ailment.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2008, 03:03:14 PM »
Mr. MacWood:

From your consistent questions and concentration on the deaths and the later lives of some of these signficant architects of the first half of the 20th century it seems like you have something of a fixation on this aspect of their lives and biographies.

I, for one, would encourage you to continue to look into this aspect and perhaps develop your own conclusions in this context-----as to some unusual theme or statistic out of the norm with other professions, interests or art forms.

I don't think I personally would want to try to do some statistical comparison to other professions or art forms but it has always seemed to me that an unusual number of these famous designers of that era died or had the latter part of their lives end tragically in some way.

I suppose the question would then be, is there something about the world of golf architecture or its type of art form that might lead to this in some unusual way?

Perhaps it has something to do with persons who are blessed with creativity. I don't know.

TEPaul

Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2008, 03:27:37 PM »
"God only know what he would have accomplished had not be stricken with this mysterious ailment. "

Hugh Wilson was stricken with kidney failure. Do you consider that to be a "mysterious" ailment?

Thomas MacWood

Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2008, 04:01:23 PM »
Kidney failure can occur from an acute situation or from chronic problems.  According to his obit Wilson suffered from an unidentified chronic medical condition. I must also point out I am not a doctor, although I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2008, 04:03:52 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2008, 04:25:14 PM »
"I must also point out I am not a doctor, although I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night."


Mr. MacWood:

That would certainly seem so. Do you stay there every night? Is that where you do your golf architectural resarch on your computer?

As to the cause of Hugh Wilson's death I would tend to rely on what Alan Wilson said about his brother's condition and the cause of his death in a series of letters over a week's time preceding and just following his death. Maybe you think Alan was lying again or engaging in hyperbole as you and David Moriarty have implied about most everything else Alan Wilson wrote but as always that's pretty far-fetched.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2008, 04:34:05 PM »
Te
Right before he died Hugh Wilson complained he felt like a boiled owl. From his 1912 trip abroad to his chronic medical condition, clearly you don't have the market cornered on Wilson's story.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2008, 05:33:15 PM »
I'd really like to jump in here but it just doesn't look like fun...strange as that may sound.

TEPaul

Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2008, 06:21:15 PM »
"Te
Right before he died Hugh Wilson complained he felt like a boiled owl. From his 1912 trip abroad to his chronic medical condition, clearly you don't have the market cornered on Wilson's story."


Mr. MacWood:

Clearly you have some kind of fixation on competing with people about information of any kind. I'm the one who told you and others on here years ago that Hugh Wilson said in his last letter to Piper he felt like a boiled owl, so it's a bit ironic you're telling me that now as if you're telling me something I didn't know. ;)

He obviously said he felt like a boiled owl because his blood pressure went through the roof in the last week or two of his life and he had a fairly massive hemmorage behind one of his eyes. I've been fully aware of Wilson's life long health problems for years but despite all that the fact is he didn't die of life long health problems ;) he died of something specific and in his case it was total renal failure (kidney failure). 

The 1912 trip abroad was described in Merion's history at first as a "romantic story" in which Wilson narrowly missed sailing home on the Titanic because Desmond Tolhurst, Merion's last history writer,  believed that Wilson went abroad in 1910 and he realized the Titanic sunk almost two years later. For proving Wilson did go abroad in 1912 and narrowly missed sailing on the Titanic we and Merion can thank David Moriarty for that by searching ship passenger manifests.

As for where the 1910 story came from and when we believe we now understand that but I can guarantee you noone will ever explain that to someone like you. Even if we did I doubt you'd be able to understand it or what it means in the context of Tolhurst's book.

But the point is it had nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not Hugh Wilson designed Merion East. That someone would use that logic to base an essay on the fact that Macdonald/Whigam therefore must have had more to do with the design of Merion East merely exhibits a lack of understanding of Wilson, Merion and Merion East golf course.   
« Last Edit: October 06, 2008, 06:25:19 PM by TEPaul »

john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2008, 06:27:13 PM »
I enjoyed the Belvedere Golf Club in Charleviox.
Club states 'founded' in 1925......Willie Watson design.
Club also says   " The membership of the Belvedere Golf Club is proud of its course and its history. The Club was founded in 1925 with the course opening for play in 1927. "

If Wee Willie went there after leaving California, it was a glorious retirement in the depression era.  Beautiful scenery, fresh air, and marvelous harbor.   Probably gave many a lesson to the super rich around Charlevoix.    Plenty of fish to catch and eat during the Depression era.

Also, imagine that the folks at Charleviox played golf elsewhere before 1927.

Tippy tap type and bada bing..............

"  Located between Lake Charlevoix and Lake Michigan, the municipally operated course was built in 1896 and designed by Scotsman Willie Watson. The nine hole layout measures 3,300 yards and is a great walking experience. Superb conditioning and its unique road crossings make it a fantastic, affordable choice for players of all abilities.  "

Take it from there.

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2008, 07:07:39 PM »
I must also point out I am not a doctor, although I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Tom,

Or should I call you Pedro.  Thank you for that, you had me laughing out loud.  Great use of a movie quote.  TEPaul may not of got it, but that was damn funny - great stuff.

Chris

TEPaul

Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2008, 07:27:55 PM »
Chris:

Yeah, I get it. This is about the tenth time he's come up with his Holiday Inn Express remark, except thankfully this is the first time he said he stayed in it and not me.   ;)

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unsolved Mysteries II
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2008, 07:35:28 PM »
TEPaul,

Well, it was that good of a movie!! ;D

I will step aside and let you and Tom continue to batle royal it out over all threads that either of you post on.

Chris