Unsolved Mysteries II

[Thomas MacWood]

What are some of the unsolved mysteries in golf architecture history?

I'm very interested in Willie Watson....one of the mysteries surrounding WW is what happened to him after 1930? He appears to have completely disappeared.

[TEPaul]

"....one of the mysteries surrounding WW is what happened to him after 1930? He appears to have completely disappeared."


Mr. MacWood:

Not exactly. He went back to Michigan but in the winters he operated a kumquat farm in Augusta, Georgia. Watson actually laid out ANGC but the club pretty successfully quashed that fact. But there is an article in an early 1930s edition of the Augusta Times and Tattler newspaper that proves Watson laid out ANGC. I'd show it to you but I just made a pledge not to help you.   

Good luck. 

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom Paul,

That was completely uncalled for and quite immature... PLEASE STOP IT!

Tom Mac raised a serious question worthy of this board's discussion and consideration. The back and forth nonsense that has been engaged in HAS to come to an end or the site will become barren of all who want to partake in serious architectural discussion.

You've made many a complaint about comments of his, but this one is squarely on you... please let some of it go...

[TEPaul]

OK, Philip, let's just be super serious all the time, then. Willie Watson returned to Michigan where he lived out his years as a club pro.

Is that better?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom Mac,

According to C&W he was in Los Angeles until 1931 and then became the professional at the Charlevoix CC in Michigan... Nothing about him was mentioned on their website.

Not much, but a start...

TP, I was typing when your post came up... Yes, that is much better...

[TEPaul]

Philip:

For Christ's Sake, man, you can't mention any information on anyone from C&W to Tom MacWood. Don't you know that yet? I guess he thinks C&W is always wrong or else referring to it isn't really doing "independent, expert" research. Get out there and do some research in old magazines and newspapers and whatever you do definitely DO NOT approach some golf club where Watson may've spent his "September years."

[Mark Pearce]

Philip:

For Christ's Sake, man, you can't mention any information on anyone from C&W to Tom MacWood. Don't you know that yet? I guess he thinks C&W is always wrong or else referring to it isn't really doing "independent, expert" research. Get out there and do some research in old magazines and newspapers and whatever you do definitely DO NOT approach some golf club where Watson may've spent his "September years."

This is becoming tedious beyond belief.  You aren't funny and this "witty" continuous stream of attacks on MacWood is beyond boring.  I'm told by people I've met from this site that have met you that you're actually a decent bloke.  For everyone's sake, please start behaving like one.

[TEPaul]

MarkP:

Get a grip on yourself. I mentioned that to Phil Young because every time I've cited C&W on here that is precisely what Mr. MacWood has said to me. If he'd going to be consistent he should say it to Phil Young too.

Well, why don't we just see:

"In 1931, he returned to Michigan when the golf course construction business was severely curtailed by the depression. Waton served as a club professional at Charlevoix, Michigan, during the last years of his life."
C&W

[Jeff_Brauer]

TePaul,

Yes, its getting tedious.

It does raise a point though. Both Ron and Geoff know there are some factual errors in the earlier editions.  Every time they find something, they correct it, but at the moment, there are no plans for a new version, despite their efforts and desire to do so.

As some recent threads show (and I am thinking of the Omaha CC thread, as well as our favorite gal) sometimes info is conflicting.  They got much of it from old newspapers and from descendants of the gcas' profiled.  Both sources have been discredited by combatants here from time to time.  I am not sure how much access they had to various club histories, which you find to be the cats meow of historical research.

My guess is that 95% or higher of the historical statements in their books are true - at least as far as they go in those short summaries.  For those who really want to dig into a personal or course history further, it is now possible via the internet to dig deeper than they did over 20 years ago. (and for Ron W, he started the process probably 20 years before the book was published)

Does this discredit them as a source? I don't think so, but we have to realize their intent was a broad history of gca and with that in place, others with time and inclination to add to that history will surely flesh out more details.  But, we sure don't want to discredit their efforts even as new/more info is found.

[Michael Dugger]

I'll pile on here and I've been saying this for months.

Play nice or don't play at all, everything you ever needed to know you learned in Kindergarten.

Which seems to be about the level of maturity TEPaul is operating under lately.

[Tony_Muldoon]

If he'd going to be consistent he should say it to Phil Young too.

This from the only person on here who criticises other's spelling and grammar. Too funny


The greatest mystery is how Tom Paul can frequently tell us about the important people who read this and then post the bile he does.  It's Tom Paul who repeatedly discredits the site.

A third vote for how tedious you are.  I'm now awarding myself a weeks cooling off.  

[Dave_Miller]

TePaul,

Yes, its getting tedious.

It does raise a point though. Both Ron and Geoff know there are some factual errors in the earlier editions.  Every time they find something, they correct it, but at the moment, there are no plans for a new version, despite their efforts and desire to do so.

 

There are inaccuracies in the C&W book.  Including an inaccuracy concerning my home club, Charles River.  So it cannot be considered infallible but then who is (other than maybe Pat Mucci )
Best
Dave

[Thomas MacWood]

Ironically I spoke to Ron Whitten a couple of months ago about this very subject. Among other things he told me Watson's disappearance was a major mystery to him.  WW's track dries up in Charlevoix around 1930. Ron has no idea where he died or when he died. An excellent source of information for these old guys are their obituaries (especially for a guy like Watson whose background is not well documented), but if you don't know when and where a person died obviously you have no obit. I wonder if he moved to Canada or went back to Scotland.

[RJ_Daley]

One thing that doesn't help in C&W is that no birth year was given for Watson.  One would think that the mention of him emigrating from Scotland to work on Minnikahada in 1898, would put him somewhere in the 25-30years old age bracket.  So when he went back to Charlevoix in 1930-31, he'd have already been 60ish.  Not too good of odds, actuarily speaking in 1930s that he lived all that much longer.  So, I'd start looking in death records at County Reg of Deeds, around there...  Trouble is, Watson is such a common name.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I guess the II means we can't repeat earlier mysteries.

Did Behr do any work in Germany?
Do Behr's heirs have any of his personal papers?
Did ANGC really renege on its debts and if so how did it manage that w/o declaring bankruptcy?
By some accounts, the gap between claimed and documented Mackenzie courses totals 100: was this marketing license with the truth or could dozens of courses, current and NLE, be out there waiting to be rediscovered?
Presumably Mack drew routing maps for every course he designed? Could those not found still be out there?
Did Mackenzie supervise construction using photographs for any of his designs besides Castletown?
Did factors other than divorce play a role in Charles's fallout with Alister?
What exactly did Mackenzie do during the War?
Exactly how much did Yale cost to build, and why did costs run far beyond estimates?
How good could the second course at Yale have been?

[Thomas MacWood]

Watson was born in 1860.

[Thomas MacWood]

The death records in the US don't show any William Watson born in Scotland in 1860 dying in the 1930s or 40s, nor do they show his wife dying around that time, which leads me to believe they flew the coop.

[David Sneddon]

Tom:

If you think he may have returned to Scotland for his remaining days, you might be able to establish his death through:

http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/famrec/bdm.html

Unfortunately William Watson is a very common name, however, probably like most folk returning to their homeland, he would have settled in or around his place of birth.  You might be able to check the Death Records for that area.

[Mike_Cirba]

The plaque outside of Charlevoix Golf Club (as opposed to the more modern Charlevoix Country Club) states that the golf course was started by Chicago Club members J. P. Wilson and Edward Waller in 1896 as the Chicago Club, and that Scotsman Willie Watson was commissioned to design the course.  It was supposedly also once 18 holes.

Today, it's a neat old nine-holer with all sorts of little bumps and ripples.  In 1937 the Chicago Club sold the course to the city of Charlevoix for $1.

Given what we know about Watson, is it possible that he could have designed Charlevoix that early?   I believe he was in the states by then, but am uncertain.

[Thomas MacWood]

Watson came to the US in 1898. I believe Watson was first involved at Charlevoix GC in 1917, but I'll double check that.

Dave
Thanks for the link.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Thanks...it's likely then that he modified an existing course because it's pretty clear that there was a golf course there by the late 1800's.

[Mike_Cirba]

One source of mystery is that the 1930-31 American Golf Guide shows Charlevoix Golf Club as having been established in 1928, and the pro is Willie Watson.

If the course was still under the domain of the "Chicago Club" at that time, I wonder about the name as well as the date of establishment.

[TEPaul]

"My guess is that 95% or higher of the historical statements in their books are true - at least as far as they go in those short summaries.  For those who really want to dig into a personal or course history further, it is now possible via the internet to dig deeper than they did over 20 years ago. (and for Ron W, he started the process probably 20 years before the book was published)

Does this discredit them as a source? I don't think so, but we have to realize their intent was a broad history of gca and with that in place, others with time and inclination to add to that history will surely flesh out more details.  But, we sure don't want to discredit their efforts even as new/more info is found."

JeffB:

I agree with you. In something like the massive scope of what C&W did obviously there are going to be mistakes but the point is, your point, and my point, is probably 95% of it is true and factual and that fact is a huge boon and benefit to all of us who use that resource and have for years. I'm getting sick of these few people who make a career on here of picking apart histories to make a name for themselves, particularly one of them who regularly criticizes me every time I've mentioned C&W on here as a resource of any information.

[Thomas MacWood]

One source of mystery is that the 1930-31 American Golf Guide shows Charlevoix Golf Club as having been established in 1928, and the pro is Willie Watson.

If the course was still under the domain of the "Chicago Club" at that time, I wonder about the name as well as the date of establishment.

I found Charlevoix in the 1923 Golf Guide listing the main contact someone in Chicago. I wonder if the club made some kind of transition in 1928. Watson began spending his summers there in 1917. He spent the rest of the year in Pasadena.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tommy Mac,

That''s interesting...Charlevoix doesn't show up in the American Golf Guide far as I can tell until later.

Yet, today I found turn of the century articles that described it and even included a pic.