Photo tour of the Quarry at Giants Ridge

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean, Jeff -

Sean beat me to the punch re the 11th hole -- it looks a wonderful hole. When I saw it on the arial/routing, my first thought was the 12th at Augusta, and it looks a little like that to me even in the photo, and even with all the differences, e.g. the mining pit instead of the pond and a differently shaped green etc. Maybe it's those bunkers on the back, left side...

Peter

[Jason Topp]

Jeff

A very cool one shotter!  Who would have thought it possible from a chap who supports the Stars?


This is the hole which made me really look.  I love how the lake shapes the hole, but in a way which seems limitless.  One question, why didn't you choose to use a bit bigger centreline bunker in what looks to be a decent size dip and just eliminate the left bunker in favour of a grass hollow.  I think the focus of attention would have been more drawn to make the carry and enjoy the scenery.  Of course, your idea may have been to get guys looking left.  Talk to me!


Overall, I think the course looks wonderful.  Why hasn't there been more talk about this place?  Is it just the MN factor?

Ciao

Sean:

A few comments from Minnesota:

It probably is not possible for a course to have more buzz than Giant's Ridge given its location.  It is almost universally considered the best public course in the state.  It is, however, a good 3 hour drive from the twin cities and the season is about as short as it gets in the US at lower elevations.  One mid may day, I was eating breakfast in Duluth before playing and a significant snowfall hit.

Nonetheless for a combination of value and quality golf, I think a trip that includes both courses at Giant's Ridge, the Wilderness at Fortune Bay and Northland might be the best I have taken.


As to 11:  I have always seen it as one of the weaker holes on the course even though I understand why you like the picture.  I am a fan of short par threes but have always seen the hole as pretty straightforward.  I'll have to pay more attention when I return.

As to 18, one thing not evident from the pictures is that the lake is over a steep cliff and the effect in person is definitely different than the picture.  The lake appears pretty remote off the tee.

The inside corner bunker appears very natural (I think it is exposed rock) and is a terrific hazard because a safe tee shot leaves 200 yards from a difficult angle to a green perched at the edge of the cliff.  A bailout right off the tee requires you to either carry the cliff with a slope kicking the ball left thereby making a direct attack on the pin unlikely to succeed or (more likely) use some terrific ground contours short and left of the green to run the ball onto the middle.  If you challenge the corner, however, you can have a much shorter approach from a much better angle. 

The hole forces a ton of decisions and provides terrific views because someone in the group always bails out right off the tee and the green is on the edge of the cliff. 

Eighteen is a brilliant finishing hole.  The hole is tough, but like all great holes, it provides hope to the player who correctly calculates his ability that day and understands the options that exist.  I think the inside corner hazard, the use of the cliff and the slopes around the green are a brilliant combination that force a decision on every shot.

Some people do not like the hole.  I think it is because they are surprised by the slopes on and around the green.  Often the best approach is aimed left of the hole away from the cliff rather than at the pin.  Some well struck agressive approaches wind up bounding away from the pin, where as a low left miss can get close.  A resort player needs to play the hole multiple times to understand the fun of this type of challenge.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I will try to answer your questions in order:

Photo 1 - That's the 5th hole.  The first bunkers are at what was the "normal" 265-285 range.  After seeing the distances some players were hitting test shots I added a back tee and then that pot bunker (the last two on 14fw were similar) near the end so there would be challenge for long hitters.

Photo 2 - I don't see the flag either, but it can be partially hidden behind the bunker.  The green was originally supposed to be up to the left, on top of the bank, but that turned out to be a peat deposit created from trenching to find more sand.  I fell in and got stuck several hours well before construction in this area!  The bank on the left was left from mining ops and we fit the green to the base of it.

Photo 3 - The small pond to the left had a trestle. It was apparently the clean out pond for the rail cars.  There were also fuel tanks.  The bank behind the green was an entry road for trucks, which were used after rail service stopped.  Other rail remnants (which I wanted to keep more of) were old tracks leading to that trestle across 1 fw.  Also, the grass bunker behind 18 green was a rail siding for equipment loading.

The fw contouring was covering, while it doesn't show as well in every photo, most fw have more contouring than average.

Photo 4 - We called this the "site that kept on giving."  Those rocks in the waste areas weren't visible at first, having been covered by blowing sand.  It was  simple matter to uncover them and place the green on top of an old mining ledge.  It was inspired somewhat by a Palmer green at Decon's Lodge. At least, I went over there to play once, and recognized that their long reverse r shaped green was similar to what I was noodling on for this site.  This actually was one of the last holes in the routing.

Photo 5 - Yeah, I like my bunkers easily spotted.  The first grass bunker was an existing bank from sand quarrying.  the first sand bunker sits atop what was a sunken road into the middle of the site.  Since the valley was blind, I put the bunker on top to kind of mark it, and provide an aiming point for those who play right of the carry grass bunker.

Photo 7 - The small pot was another last minute add, this time for the shorter hitter.  Not sure how the exact size came about, but it just seemed right to keep it smaller since it can affect average play.  The club pro can easily carry the second one, so it needs to stay to stop most of us from the short cut, or provide challenge.  Some people question it naturally, since a decent, but thin tee shot can get bunkered.  I predict it will probably be removed someday by someone without asking me......

The lake does provide a nice back drop, doesn't it?  I was looking for a way to get it more into play, and at one time, this was routed as a finishing par 3.   The owner wasn't buying that idea!  Also, that far bank had my original proposed no. 1 and 2 holes.  We were originally going to have nine holes each side of the road.  However, that area was a locomotive facitlity, with lots of oil cleanup - and under federal law, no limit to potential costs to the Owner, so we abandoned that edge of the property.  It worked out well - by making it more compact it turned into a better walking course.

So many questions for a Detroit Red Wings Fan!

Hope the answers aren't too boring.  I figure someone might like to hear some thoughts going through a gca mind.  (yes, we do have some....)

As to talk, it gets a lot regionally, and some nationally.  GD and Golf both have it in their Top 100 public lists.  Brad Klien is not a fan, but may be one moreso now that he sees they are burning down the tall fescues around the bunkers!

Jeff

Thanks for the reply.  I spose what I was thinking concerning the 18th was the idea of a hidden hazard.  I wonder if there were no sand in that left dip if guys would be more tempted to take on the shortcut.  The penalty for coming up short is still harsh - I am thinking a blind shot to what looks like a tricky green site.  I was also thinking of digging out that dip to flow more into the fairway.  Sort of a collection area for the guy getting too greedy with a draw over the centreline bunker - the fairway seems to lean toward the left a bit.  I don't know, I just hate to see sand used so often as a hazard when other options are available.  I know, I know, I have issues. 

Still, it would be interesting to see a photoshop kob of the centreline bunker being big enough to fill the dip and the left bunker removed, but the hollow expanded into the fairway some 5-7 yards. 

BTW  When your Stars win another Cup then you can crack wise about the Wings.  Until then keep cheering!  I think I had more belief in your team last year than you did!  I know they had a shakey finish, but they won 10 games against 3 of the 5 best teams in hockey - plus they weren't properly healthy. 

Jason

Thanks for the reply.  I had sort of heard of Giants Ridge, but only really in passing on this board.  I probably missed loads of conversations about it.  I can see why it is a problematic location being 3 hours north of north.  Man, Detroit seems like the centre of the world compared to that!

Ciao

[Charlie Goerges]

"Still, it would be interesting to see a photoshop kob of the centreline bunker being big enough to fill the dip and the left bunker removed, but the hollow expanded into the fairway some 5-7 yards."

Like this Sean:
New


Old

[Jeff_Brauer]

Sean,

Point taken on the Wings. You have bragging rights for now.  Actually, the bunker left was an old sand pit from mining ops. I am a little surprised to see the white sand in it. I thought it was a waste bunker. If the inside corner is bright white, then I know the rest of it is buff waste sand.  It wouldn't seem right to cover natural sand with turf to make it hidden. 

We did shave back the hill on the left a little to make it partially visible. I have used grass bunkers in similar situations, thinking, as you do, that the sand may just be too much of an obvious "stop sign" but just didn't choose to do it this time.  I guess its because I felt like there should be some kind of a distance marker for golfers out there.  Sometimes, the scale of the course, which is huge, makes golfers think everything is closer than it is.  And, with that pot bunker in the shorter area, sometimes the smaller bunkers make golfers think its further than it is.