[Mike_Cirba]

Jeffersonville GC has to be the absolute best value-proposition in Pennsylvania.   

I think we should also add Berkleigh GC (formerly private, as well) into the discussion/mix of the best public under $100 courses in PA.

[Joe Bausch]

Does the 450 tee exist for the first hole at Lederach yet?

Unless it has been added in the last month or so, then no.

I really wonder if it is ever going to be added.

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

For those from Pennsy try to keep in mind a few of the layouts that are public NOW -- started with the genesis as a private club. That means my poiint about specifically creating public courses from the get-go was not really happening to any large degree within the Keystone State - until most recent times. The quality ones I mentioned -- Lederach and Morgan Hill clearly have made a statement, at least in my mind, that is beyond the cookie cutter public courses that dominate the landscape.

Frankly, if just about any state took some of their top private courses and then slapped a public label on them it would not change the fact that their beginnings were rooted in a private emphasis.

That doesn't mean to say that in today's golf there are no quality public courses to play but the level of such golf -- given a national perspective -- is still very low given the range of private courses within the state and the role golf has played in the state's overall positioning. Things are changing for the Keystone State but that movement has been very slow to come and is only now starting to see a crack of light filtering into a room that has been for too long quite dark.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

I think that cuts both ways...Just as many quality courses that were originally public have now gone private...witness Great Bear and Hartefeld National as two examples that come to mind.

On the other hand, Inninscrone went public from original private plans, as did whatever they're calling Hurdzan/Fry's course in Hershey these days.

Keep dissing PA courses and I'm going to buy you a lifetime membership to Country Club of the Poconos at Big Ridge.   

[Steve_ Shaffer]

KBM,

I said "I think..." I Don't think that qualifies as a fact.Perhaps I should have said something like "I'm not sure,,," If I remember correctly, you told me that this project was not needed in your opinion but Casper wanted it done or something like that.

[Matt_Ward]

Kelly:

What's the issue preventing getting the back tee completed ?

If the others could get done - I don't see why it's taken so long.

In regard to the switch of the 9th and 18th holes -- do you see the changing
in their overall positioning to be a net positive for what you originally envisioned or
was it done solely for the purposes in selling more food and drinks because of its
close proximity to the clubhouse?


Mike:

The issue doesn't really cut both ways -- the ones designed to be private (e.g. Reading, Jeffersonville, etc, etc) were created by a number of first rate designers, e.g, Donald Ross, etc, etc. They are created to handle specific shot situations that far beyond their public counterparts of that time -- and frankly until very recently.

On the public side -- the ones you listed recently were meant for public with the possibility of changing their status later on down the pike. Mike, when you mention Hartefeld National and Great Bear -- do you really think they are equal to the likes of Lederach and Morgan Hill? I don't and I have a good amount of respect for Great Bear but I don't see either of those two courses competing with what Moran did with the aforementioned two courses.

You also mentioned Inniscrone -- again -- it's a layout designed by Hanse for private play. It was not conceived as a public course.

When most architects create courses for private play -- the thought process and end result is a good bit different than if it's one for 100% public play. The reverse doesn't have the same impact as if a course goes from private to public.

By the way Mike -- I will tread lightly on the subject -- the thought of having a lifetime membership at your favorite place in the Poconos might make me return to bowling !

[Matt_Ward]

What's interesting for me is seeing how the western half of the USA (minus large areas of California near a number of the metro areas - with the Rustic Canyon exception duly noted) seems to be the place where affordable and quite solid designs are happening with much more frequency - no doubt there are some unique layouts in the southeast too as well as the Texas / OK / KS areas. The expense of building a public course in the Northeast is well documented and the return for such a narrow window for a playing season does impact the botton line -- so does, until very recently, the cost of the land itself and all the accompanying permits / paperwork tied to it.

What I have seen in the Northeast especially is top tier public layouts, while a number of them are grandioise for all the amenities they often offer -- the sheer complexity and unique elements of quality golf design is often dumbed down or fairly low level stuff.

With the last remaining open spaces out west I think it will be most interesting how the shakeout of the economy impacts the already tortoise like growth golf has experienced over the last number of years.

As I said before -- I can only hope more time and discussion is spent on affordable and quality designs because few people really do have the access to get on the other courses often cited on GCA.

[Sean_A]

What's interesting for me is seeing how the western half of the USA (minus large areas of California near a number of the metro areas - with the Rustic Canyon exception duly noted) seems to be the place where affordable and quite solid designs are happening with much more frequency - no doubt there are some unique layouts in the southeast too as well as the Texas / OK / KS areas. The expense of building a public course in the Northeast is well documented and the return for such a narrow window for a playing season does impact the botton line -- so does, until very recently, the cost of the land itself and all the accompanying permits / paperwork tied to it.

What I have seen in the Northeast especially is top tier public layouts, while a number of them are grandioise for all the amenities they often offer -- the sheer complexity and unique elements of quality golf design is often dumbed down or fairly low level stuff.

With the last remaining open spaces out west I think it will be most interesting how the shakeout of the economy impacts the already tortoise like growth golf has experienced over the last number of years.

As I said before -- I can only hope more time and discussion is spent on affordable and quality designs because few people really do have the access to get on the other courses often cited on GCA.

Matt

If its affordable and accessible you are looking for, I would humbly suggest that $100 green fee doesn't match that premise.  Seems to me we should be looking at $50 tops.  It isn't too often I would be happy to fork out $100 for a public course.  Sure, more than the architecture is being evaluated, but then architecture isn't the only factor in a day of enjoyable golf.

Ciao

Ciao

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

C'mon -- that's a bit unrealistic given the nature of how costs have escalated in the last 15-20 years.

If you took the time to notice -- most of the layouts I mentioned fell somewhere between $50-$75 to play. I mentioned the high benchmark of $100 but that's nothing more than a ceiling figure.

To find courses at or under $50 would likely be a self-defeating exercise. In my travels only a very, very few could remotely be inserted -- I did mention Devil's Thumb in Delta, CO as one example. But, you need to keep in mind, that the benchmark you are suggesting is simply not realistic.

I am placing an EQUAL EMPHASIS - on both price and quality architecture that rises to the level of national consideration.

For those enamored with just price the net result will likely be 99% of the time either disappointed or facing at best so-so layouts. Again, that may be satisfactory for those folks who are quite concerned with forking over bucks to play.

[Sean_A]

Sean:

C'mon -- that's a bit unrealistic given the nature of how costs have escalated in the last 15-20 years.

If you took the time to notice -- most of the layouts I mentioned fell somewhere between $50-$75 to play. I mentioned the high benchmark of $100 but that's nothing more than a ceiling figure.

To find courses at or under $50 would likely be a self-defeating exercise. In my travels only a very, very few could remotely be inserted -- I did mention Devil's Thumb in Delta, CO as one example. But, you need to keep in mind, that the benchmark you are suggesting is simply not realistic.

I am placing an EQUAL EMPHASIS - on both price and quality architecture that rises to the level of national consideration.

For those enamored with just price the net result will likely be 99% of the time either disappointed or facing at best so-so layouts. Again, that may be satisfactory for those folks who are quite concerned with forking over bucks to play.

Matt

Perhaps that is the problem.  You are trying to find national prominent courses.  Its near impossible to find a course of national merit that is affordable.  The two ideas really don't go hand in hand, because as a hard core golfer I wouldn't consider $100 affordable - meaning a price I would pay 52 weeks a year.

Ciao

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

Beg to differ partner.

There are national prominent courses -- I listed no less than a number of them and others opined about a few others as well. The two ideas are not mutually exclusive but do require a bit of field work.

Too many people here on GCA are simply interested in the private courses of elite status. Nothing wrong with that but I like to go out into the hinterlands and see is out there. Again, you have people on this site who think quality golf design can only be had by those with certain first and last names. That's not the case either as you likely may know.

You keep on harping on $100 -- look at the LIST I provided and bother to see what the actual price points are. One other thing -- if one were to be a regular at any number of the places mentioned there are various discount plans available that would further reduce the cost to play 18 holes on a steady basis as hard core golfer.

[Chris_Clouser]

Sean,

I echo Matt on this.  On the Trophy Club, I know that it has several options to get rates below $50 dollars, especially during the week.  They have a summer twilight rate after 3pm (I believe that is the cutoff time) that you get a cart and round of golf for $25.  Not bad for what many consider the best public in the state. 

There are loads of other course like that in Indiana.  He just used the $100 as a benchmark.  Aside from the resort type courses like French Lick, Belterra or Brickyard, the top public courses in the state can be played for $50 or less in many instances.

[JMorgan]

Matt, this is a good thread.  I'd like to see you do a list of Top Public Golf Whenever Opened Under $50.  To me, that says more about the way a club has run its business -- perhaps to be emulated by others.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here are GD's Best New Affordable since 2002:
2002 (appeared in the Jan., 2003 issue)
    Best New Affordable Public Courses
    1. Rustic Canyon G. Cse., Moorpark, Calif., Gil Hanse, Jim Wagner and Geoff Shackelford
    2. Devil's Thumb G.C., Delta, Colo., Rick Phelps
    3. Hunting Hawk G.C., Glen Allen, Va., Bill Love
    4. Wasioto Winds G. Cse. Pineville, Ky., Michael Hurdzan and Dana Fry
    5. The G.C. at Fleming Island, Orange Park, Fla., Bobby Weed
    6. Grande G.C., Jackson, Mich., Ray Hearn
    7. Iron Horse G.C., Ashland, Neb., Gene Bates
    8. The Summit G.C., Cannon Falls, Minn., William Whitworth, Marty Benson Jr. and Greg Wencl
    9. Cherry Blossom G. & C.C., Georgetown, Ky. Clyde Johnston
    10. Prairie Highlands G. Cse., Olathe, Kan., Craig Schreiner
2003 (appeared in the Jan. 2004 issue)
    Best New Affordable Public Courses
    1. Black Mesa G.C., La Mesilla, N.M., Baxter Spann.
    2. Fossil Trace G.C., Golden, Colo., Jim Engh.
    3. DarkHorse G.C., Auburn, Calif., Keith Foster.
    4. Texarkana G. Ranch, Texarkana, Tex., Jim Fazio Jr. and Hank Haney.
    5. Packsaddle Ridge G.C., Keezletown, Va., Russell Breeden and Jeff Forbes.
    6. Hemlock G.C., Ludington, Mich., Raymond Hearn.
    7. ArborLinks G. Cse., Nebraska City, Neb., Arnold Palmer, Ed Seay, Erik Larsen.
    8. Point Roberts G. Cse., Point Roberts, Wash., Graham Cooke and Wayne Carleton.
    9. The Links at Firestone Farms, Columbiana, Ohio., Brian Huntley.
    10. The Legacy G.C., Norwalk, Iowa., Jeffrey D. Brauer.
2004 (appeared in Jan. 2005 issue)
    Best New Affordable Public
    1. Copper Mill G.C., Zachary, La., Max Maxwell and Nathan Crace.
    2. The Rawls Cse., Lubbock, Tex., Tom Doak.
    3. Cannon Ridge G.C. (The Beman Cse.) Fredericksburg, Va., Bobby Weed and Deane Beman.
    4. Hidden Cove G. Cse. at Grayson Lake State Park, Olive Hill, Ky., Brian Ault.
    5. The Oaks G. Cse., Cottage Grove, Wis., Greg Martin.
    6. Dale Hollow Lake State Resort Park G. Cse., Burkesville, Ky., Brian Ault.
    7. Indian Creek G.C. (The Creek Cse.) Carrollton, Tex., Jeff Brauer.
    8. Sleepy Hole G. Cse., Suffolk, Va., Tom Clark.
    9. Twin Bridges G.C., Gadsden, Ala., Gene Bates.
    10. ShadowGlen G.C., Manor, Tex., Roy Bechtol and Randy Russell.
2005 (appeared in Jan. 2006 issue)
    Best New Affordable Public
    1. Bully Pulpit G. Cse., Medora, N.D., Michael Hurdzan.
    2. Arrowhead Pointe at Richard B. Russell, Elberton, Ga., Bob Walker.
    3. Eagle Ridge G. Cse. at Yatesville Lake State Park, Louisa, Ky., Arthur Hills and Steve Walker
    4. The Shoals G.C. (Fighting Joe Cse.) Muscle Shoals, Ala., Roger Rulewich and Bobby Vaughan
    5. Highland Meadows G. Cse., Windsor, Colo., Art Schaupeter.
    6. Angels Crossing G.C., Vicksburg, Mich., W. Bruce Matthews III.
    T-7. The G.C. at Stonelick Hills, Batavia, Ohio, Jeff Osterfeld.
    T-7. Big Fish G.C., Hayward, Wis., Pete Dye and Tim Liddy.
    9. Soldier Hollow G. Cse. (Gold Cse.) Midway, Utah, Gene Bates.
    10. Grey Hawk G.C., Lagrange, Ohio, Robert von Hagge and Mike Smelek.
2006 (appeared in Jan. 2007 issue)
    Best New Public Course Under $75 of 2006
    1. King Carter G.C., Irvington, Va.,Joel Weiman.
    2. Blue Heron G.C. (Highland/Lakes), Medina, Ohio, John Robinson.
    3. Sundance at A-Ga-Ming Resort, Kewadin, Mich., Jerry Matthews
    4. The Shoals (Schoolmaster), Muscle Shoals, Ala., Roger Rulewich & Bobby Vaughan.
    5. The Atchafalaya G.Cse., Patterson, La., Robert von Hagge and Rick Baril.
    6. Juniper G. Cse., Redmond, Ore., John Harbottle.
    7. Bergamont G.C., Oregon, Wis., Andy North.
    8. The Jewel G.C., Lake City, Minn., Hale Irwin and Stan Gentry.
    9. Callippe Preserve G. Cse., Pleasanton, Calif., Brian Costello.
    10. Mines G. Cse., Grand Rapids, Mich., Mike DeVries.
2007
 BEST NEW PUBLIC: UNDER $75
1. SPRING CREEK G.C. • Gord Le, Va. • Yards 7,172 • Par 72 • Fee: $70 • Designer: Ed Carton • 540-832-0744 • springcreekgolfclub.com
2. JUG MTN. RANCH G. CSE. • McCall, Idaho • Yards 7,287 • Par 72 • Fee $60: Don Knott • 208-634-5072 • jugmountainranch.com
3. MONARCH DUNES G.C. • Nipomo, Calif. • Yards 6,810 • Par 71 • Fee $73 • Damian Pascuzzo and Steve Pate • 805-343-9459 • monarchdunesgolf.com
4. THE MANOR RESORT G.C. • Farmville, Va. • Yards 7,214 • Par 72 • Fee: $49 • Rick Robbins • 434-392-2244 • themanorresort.com
5. THE DOGWOODS AT HUGH WHITE STATE PARK • Grenada, Miss. • Yards 7,015 • Par 72 • Fee: $39 • Gary Roger Baird • 662-226-4123 • dogwoodsgolf.com
6. BLUE RIDGE SHADOWS G.C. • Front Royal, Va. • Yards 7,302 • Par 72 • Fee: $72 • Tom Clark • 540-631-9661 • blueridgeshadows.com
7. BLACK BEAR G.C. • Delhi, La. • Yards 7,276 • Par 72 • Fee: $49 • Roy Bechtol and Randy Russell • 318-878-2162 • blackbear-golf.com
8. WHITE HORSE G.C. • Kingston, Wash. • Yards 7,093 • Par 72 • Fee: $63 • Cynthia Dye McGarey • 360-297-4468 • whitehorsegolf.com
9. CANYON RIVER G.C. • East Missoula, Mont. • Yards 6,966 • Par 72 • Fee: $48 • Lee Schmidt and Brian Curley • 406-721-0222 • canyonrivergolfcommunity.com
10. SAND CREEK STATION • Newton, Kan. • Yards 7,359 • Par 72 • Fee: $49 • Jeff Brauer • 316-284-6161 • sandcreekgolfclub.com

[Kalen Braley]

If there is a metro area with better layouts under $50 than what I've found here in the Salt Lake City area, then I'd like to see it.

Nothing spectacular, just oodles of good, solid, interesting layouts....and I should add, most of these can be had for under $40.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve, et al:

Please keep in mind that some of the Digest "best new affordable" use the category (believe Digest uses the threshold of $75 max) as way to get some sort of national attention but then shortly after the first year or so decide to bump up the rates.

To the credit of Digest the listing of affordable courses is something that's quite good.

Liek I said before -- so much of GCA time is spent discussing minutia of the same elite and very private places. Nothing wrong with them - but there's so much more than bandying it back and forth on such very small target grouping of courses.

JMorgan:

Thanks -- but I don't see the $50 target number as being realistic - that's why I inserted the $100 ceiling. No doubt there are various discount plans at such courses for those who will opt for repeat play.

I can certainly try to do what you have asked but that listing will be a small one because thetqo qualifiers -- price and architectural excellence do meet up with certain iron walls of basic realities.

Keep this in mind, the ones I listed on this thread are all interesting layouts and some of them are simply outstanding in so many ways.

The key is getting out in the country and seeking out such courses and not erroneously belieivng that only big ticket / big name designers are the ones to search out and play.

[tlavin]

Awesome list!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I thought the GD list was interesting in that no courses were listed in New England or PA,NY.DE,MD or NJ,probably because it's hard to build one with a projected fee less than $100 given the land costs. Lederach was a glaring omission but was listed in GW and GolfMag.

As I mentioned above about Vista Verde, the discounted rate in peak season is $90 although the rack rate was listed previously at $160. I don't think too many courses have bumped their rates up given the recent and future economy.

[Sean_A]

Sean:

Beg to differ partner.

There are national prominent courses -- I listed no less than a number of them and others opined about a few others as well. The two ideas are not mutually exclusive but do require a bit of field work.

Too many people here on GCA are simply interested in the private courses of elite status. Nothing wrong with that but I like to go out into the hinterlands and see is out there. Again, you have people on this site who think quality golf design can only be had by those with certain first and last names. That's not the case either as you likely may know.

You keep on harping on $100 -- look at the LIST I provided and bother to see what the actual price points are. One other thing -- if one were to be a regular at any number of the places mentioned there are various discount plans available that would further reduce the cost to play 18 holes on a steady basis as hard core golfer.

Matt

Maybe I am a harsh critic, but when I talk about nationally prominent courses they are ones I would take a days detour to see.  I would for Tobacco Road and Lakewood Shores.  One is more than $100 and one is considerably less.  I wouldn't for Lederach and I think it is well under $100, though I would consider playing it if in the area even though there are so many great courses about.  

I never said "mutually exclusive".  I said nearly impossible.  I don't see many affordable courses I would consider nationally prominent.  It doesn't mean many don't exist, but in the big scheme of things - how many really do exist even at $100, $200, or $300?  I think not very many.  To take it to another level, how many public courses out there would I plan a trip around to see?  I wouldn't even put Pinehurst in that category and its a load more than $100.

I guess I am probably looking for something a bit different from you when I travel nor am I often moved to call something nationally prominent because these terms are chucked about too much.  For cryin out loud, Doak handed out 12 10s in the world (probably too many imo) and you are talking about nationally prominent public courses under $100 like they are a dime  a dozen. 

Chris

Loads of good golf exists for $50.  Whether or not I am going to make much of an effort to see it is another matter.  I would like a good list of these courses for when I happen to  be in town and want a game.  I wouldn't treat it as a must see list, just as I wouldn't treat $100 coruses as a must see list, but I am much more inclined to pay $50 rather than $100 for an unknown quantity.  Underpinning this belief is the idea that architecture doesn't really vary nearly as much as the green fees do. Many, many times I have walked away from what I thought was an expensive round and wondered why.

Ciao

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

Help me out with something because I don't know if your issue is being a "harsh critic" or someone who really has not played a number of the courses listed on this thread that are at or beyond the level of Lakewood Shores.

Candidly, any of the ten I listed at the initial outset of this thread is equal or beyond the three courses that make up that facility.

You mention the virtues of the facility but keep in mind that peak rates for The Gailes (most believe this is the top course there) is $62 and that doesn't include a power cart for those who want one when playing. If you bother to check out the courses I listed you will find a fair number are equal to or right in the same vicinity with what the MI course charges.

You also downplayed Lederach but you never really provided any real details besides a simple opinion. Frankly, you need to provide more chicken to your personal bone against the PA facility.

Again, I take issue with your erroneous assertion -- stated a second time as being now "nearly impossible" to find such significant courses.

Sean, allow me to clue you in -- I've spent a good amount of my personal time traveling the USA and have been able to find out, scout and play such an array of different courses. Some of that info has come from sources here on GCA and elsewhere. The sad part is that too much info comes from resorts and other CCFAD layouts that have budgets for promotions and the like. The top tier privates are already known and therefore have their own unique followings.

If you care not to travel to see the kind of courses I have played and rated in this thread that's your prerogative. But, if you have followed the comments of others who have made their voices known here -- there are clear choices which can match affordability / reasonable pricing and high quality design. If you have not seen or played many -- it might just be because your search pattern or available time frames to play have been rather limited.

Sean, please don't insert words into my mouth by paraphrasing that I said such national prominent courses able to mix affordability with architectural quality are akin to being a "dime a dozen." Far from it -- I never suggested or implied they were. It does take some searching and some verification by personal experiences. But they do exist.

Let me point out that if you and others are hung up on only spending $50 or less for a one time visit -- then by all means knock yourself out and enjoy yourself. The facility you mentioned in MI is above that threshold but there are courses that can meet that benchmark.

Sean, I believe I can say the words "nationally prominent" because my extensive travels over many years through any number of nook and cranny communities throughout the USA has given me some real insight into where quality can be had without taking out a second mortgage to do it. People can embrace or discard my comments and go whatever direction they wish. The $100 celing is a ceiling point given the escalation of costs on any number of items from movie tickets, to the cost for going out to dinner at a mid-level restaurant, etc, etc, I believe, and as I mentioned previously there are various discount plans for those players who seek to play such places on a regular basis and not just a one time thing.

Sean, you might surprise yourself -- the "unknown quantity" you keep mentioning is out there. The list this thread has started confirms that. Of course, what you do and where you spend your $$ is your business.

[JLahrman]

Chris:

I'd like to see Purgatory get more ink but the ownership there should completely rethink the nature of what the 13th hole is about. Feasting the attributes of a hole that stretches like a runway at O'Hair isn't really design of the first order.

I still do like the course because there are a number of fun holes to play. The real shock for most people is after playing the first hole they think they are set to play some lackluster layout. When they arrive at the 2nd tee the ball game changes BIG TIME.

Indiana has a few more layouts of note as you are certainly aware. The sad reality is that many people here on GCA who set their golf travel plans likely go to the same places over and over again. Indiana is looked upon as just a place between X and Y. The reality is that the foundation of public golf there is more solid from a design standpoint than many might even realize.

Indiana even does it to themselves!  "The Crossroads of America" aka "A great place to drive through on your way somewhere else".  I got to play several of the courses around the state while in grad school at Bloomington and Purgatory was one of my favorites.  2, 3, 4, 8, 10, 11, and especially the stretch of 14, 15, and 16 I remember as being very solid holes.  Unfortunately I didn't make it up to the Trophy Club.

[Sean_A]

Sean:

Help me out with something because I don't know if your issue is being a "harsh critic" or someone who really has not played a number of the courses listed on this thread that are at or beyond the level of Lakewood Shores.

Candidly, any of the ten I listed at the initial outset of this thread is equal or beyond the three courses that make up that facility.

You mention the virtues of the facility but keep in mind that peak rates for The Gailes (most believe this is the top course there) is $62 and that doesn't include a power cart for those who want one when playing. If you bother to check out the courses I listed you will find a fair number are equal to or right in the same vicinity with what the MI course charges.

You also downplayed Lederach but you never really provided any real details besides a simple opinion. Frankly, you need to provide more chicken to your personal bone against the PA facility.

Again, I take issue with your erroneous assertion -- stated a second time as being now "nearly impossible" to find such significant courses.

Sean, allow me to clue you in -- I've spent a good amount of my personal time traveling the USA and have been able to find out, scout and play such an array of different courses. Some of that info has come from sources here on GCA and elsewhere. The sad part is that too much info comes from resorts and other CCFAD layouts that have budgets for promotions and the like. The top tier privates are already known and therefore have their own unique followings.

If you care not to travel to see the kind of courses I have played and rated in this thread that's your prerogative. But, if you have followed the comments of others who have made their voices known here -- there are clear choices which can match affordability / reasonable pricing and high quality design. If you have not seen or played many -- it might just be because your search pattern or available time frames to play have been rather limited.

Sean, please don't insert words into my mouth by paraphrasing that I said such national prominent courses able to mix affordability with architectural quality are akin to being a "dime a dozen." Far from it -- I never suggested or implied they were. It does take some searching and some verification by personal experiences. But they do exist.

Let me point out that if you and others are hung up on only spending $50 or less for a one time visit -- then by all means knock yourself out and enjoy yourself. The facility you mentioned in MI is above that threshold but there are courses that can meet that benchmark.

Sean, I believe I can say the words "nationally prominent" because my extensive travels over many years through any number of nook and cranny communities throughout the USA has given me some real insight into where quality can be had without taking out a second mortgage to do it. People can embrace or discard my comments and go whatever direction they wish. The $100 celing is a ceiling point given the escalation of costs on any number of items from movie tickets, to the cost for going out to dinner at a mid-level restaurant, etc, etc, I believe, and as I mentioned previously there are various discount plans for those players who seek to play such places on a regular basis and not just a one time thing.

Sean, you might surprise yourself -- the "unknown quantity" you keep mentioning is out there. The list this thread has started confirms that. Of course, what you do and where you spend your $$ is your business.

Matt

Thats all fair enough.  We definitely have a very different idea of what nationally prominent/significant is.  I usually use a rating system in terms of how much effort is it worth to see - not unlike Doak's system, but more broad because I don't think there are massive differences in architecturally quality once we are talking about the top whatever percentage of courses. 

So far as Lederach goes, I didn't downplay it.  I only stated that I don't think it is good enough to add a day to an itinerary or plan a trip around.  There is no doubt in mind that it is a good course and if I was in town I would consider another look and I could change my mind on a second visit and think it is better than I previously thought.  Its one of those courses I recommend people see at least once because the bunkering is outstanding and a model of what I believe bunkering is about. 

To be very candid, I don't see many profiles on here which make me want to travel to see a course.  That shouldn't be surprising because I have probably only seen 40 courses that I would praise more than just recommend and many big name courses I wouldn't place on that list.  Often times the courses profiled on here look good, but not the sort of places I feel I need to make a big effort to see.  They look more the sort of courses that if I am in town then possibly I should have a go.  Granted, that is based on photos and it is one of the reasons why I like this site - people going through the effort of posting pix.  Its not perfect, but taking in all considerations, its as good as it will get.

Ciao

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

I read what you said-- but keep this in mind some people, possibly you, don't have a desire to take the opportunity / chance, call it what one will, to visit different areas and see if the unknown courses that are mentioned in this thread reach a level of national prominence.

I define national prominence in this particular category (those less than a $100 fee to play in peak times) as courses that architecturally offer an array of unique and fun holes, that are located on a quality piece of land, that is routed to include all the key features that such land offers, that requires a high level of attention to different shotmaking situations encountered throughout the round and provides a conditioning standard that allows for the enjoyment of the round to take place without constant distractions because of poor or inconsistent turf.

I don't know what your definition of national prominent is -- you can provide one or not -- that's up to you.

You say you "don't think there are massive differences in architecturally quality once we are talking about the top whatever percentage of courses."

Sean, you missed my previous point again.

The issue is that courses with fee limitations -- in order to qualify for selection -- have to demonstrate that despite that self-imposed limitation they do offer such a unique and exciting playing experience.

So much of the discussion here on GCA generally falls upon the same courses -- usually those that are either exclusively private, high end resort or CCFAD types. For the average Joe and Jane that doesn't leave much for them to play unless they have very deep pockets or a very extensive rolodex of contacts.

You mentioned Lakewood Shores and I simply asked if you had played any of the courses on the list I initially provided. The only one I can remember you saying is Lederach. In your last post to me you again only vaguely indicated what you think is deficient with the course. I was hoping for a bit more detail than just the "I believe" opinion.

You never delved into anything specific. That doesn't help me understand your thoughts. My point on Lederach was NOT that you plan an itinerary solely on that golf course but that should people plan an itinerary around quality golf courses that offer a very fair price to play then Lederach can be considered for such visits.

Sean, I don't know what you know or don't know about Pennsy public golf. Candidly, it's in the doghouse compared to what the private side provides. Moran's work with Lederach and Morgan Hill has greatly accelerated the base floor of what previously called itself public golf in the Keystone State in my opinion.  The bunkering dimension, which you stated, is only one item of note with the course -- I think you missed a few others such as the green shapes, contours and the manner by which Moran used the entire property to get the best usage out of it. No matter.

I do agree with you that there are few profiles on GCA to cause me, you or likely others to travel to play such course(s). However, the key ingredient is that for the special category I have created there is little source guide info to weed out those places that require a second mortgage to play and usually such visits are contained to a one time visit for nearly most people.

However, there are architects who have hit the jackpot with superstar designs and a matching price structure that can expose that kind of work to people who have been forced to overpay for nothing more than bells and whistles formulaic courses. Clearly, I don't know how you travel and how many different courses you have personally sampled in a lifetime to make those judgments.

That's an individual's discretionary call and each person has to decide how to spend their leisure time and in what manner they wish to pursue it.

Interesting, you say there are only "40 courses" that you would praise and "more than just recommend." Be very interested to see if any of those courses have low costs to play them

I would just caution you and others not to make the assumption that the top tier courses under $100 are not some sort of B league listing of courses when compared to the top ones. Please don't misunderstand my last statement to mean that I see a total parity between the likes of a Oakmont and a Black Mesa, per se. But, I do believe that people who would be traveling and not have the necessary contacts to play an Oakmont would not be disappointed in one least bit if they had to play that gem of a course in the greater Santa Fe area.

One final comment on pictures -- they are like the trailer to a movie. Some give you a really good idea of what lies ahead and there are others where the sum total of the movie experience is only the trailer itself.

I can only hope this thread will spur the discussion of other such courses.

[Sean_A]

Sean:

I read what you said-- but keep this in mind some people, possibly you, don't have a desire to take the opportunity / chance, call it what one will, to visit different areas and see if the unknown courses that are mentioned in this thread reach a level of national prominence.

I define national prominence in this particular category (those less than a $100 fee to play in peak times) as courses that architecturally offer an array of unique and fun holes, that are located on a quality piece of land, that is routed to include all the key features that such land offers, that requires a high level of attention to different shotmaking situations encountered throughout the round and provides a conditioning standard that allows for the enjoyment of the round to take place without constant distractions because of poor or inconsistent turf.

I don't know what your definition of national prominent is -- you can provide one or not -- that's up to you.

You say you "don't think there are massive differences in architecturally quality once we are talking about the top whatever percentage of courses."

Sean, you missed my previous point again.

The issue is that courses with fee limitations -- in order to qualify for selection -- have to demonstrate that despite that self-imposed limitation they do offer such a unique and exciting playing experience.

So much of the discussion here on GCA generally falls upon the same courses -- usually those that are either exclusively private, high end resort or CCFAD types. For the average Joe and Jane that doesn't leave much for them to play unless they have very deep pockets or a very extensive rolodex of contacts.

You mentioned Lakewood Shores and I simply asked if you had played any of the courses on the list I initially provided. The only one I can remember you saying is Lederach. In your last post to me you again only vaguely indicated what you think is deficient with the course. I was hoping for a bit more detail than just the "I believe" opinion.

You never delved into anything specific. That doesn't help me understand your thoughts. My point on Lederach was NOT that you plan an itinerary solely on that golf course but that should people plan an itinerary around quality golf courses that offer a very fair price to play then Lederach can be considered for such visits.

Sean, I don't know what you know or don't know about Pennsy public golf. Candidly, it's in the doghouse compared to what the private side provides. Moran's work with Lederach and Morgan Hill has greatly accelerated the base floor of what previously called itself public golf in the Keystone State in my opinion.  The bunkering dimension, which you stated, is only one item of note with the course -- I think you missed a few others such as the green shapes, contours and the manner by which Moran used the entire property to get the best usage out of it. No matter.

I do agree with you that there are few profiles on GCA to cause me, you or likely others to travel to play such course(s). However, the key ingredient is that for the special category I have created there is little source guide info to weed out those places that require a second mortgage to play and usually such visits are contained to a one time visit for nearly most people.

However, there are architects who have hit the jackpot with superstar designs and a matching price structure that can expose that kind of work to people who have been forced to overpay for nothing more than bells and whistles formulaic courses. Clearly, I don't know how you travel and how many different courses you have personally sampled in a lifetime to make those judgments.

That's an individual's discretionary call and each person has to decide how to spend their leisure time and in what manner they wish to pursue it.

Interesting, you say there are only "40 courses" that you would praise and "more than just recommend." Be very interested to see if any of those courses have low costs to play them

I would just caution you and others not to make the assumption that the top tier courses under $100 are not some sort of B league listing of courses when compared to the top ones. Please don't misunderstand my last statement to mean that I see a total parity between the likes of a Oakmont and a Black Mesa, per se. But, I do believe that people who would be traveling and not have the necessary contacts to play an Oakmont would not be disappointed in one least bit if they had to play that gem of a course in the greater Santa Fe area.

One final comment on pictures -- they are like the trailer to a movie. Some give you a really good idea of what lies ahead and there are others where the sum total of the movie experience is only the trailer itself.

I can only hope this thread will spur the discussion of other such courses.

Matt

I take and appreciate your point concerning spreading discussion time amongst newer public courses.  But it will always be the case the big guns are the big draw and for good reason(s).  I don't have a system whereby I classify nationally prominent courses in price ranges.  Either a course is significant or it ain't.  Price is not at issue for this, however, it is important for me and I appreciate being "toured" around courses that don't carry a Pinehurst/Pebble price tag.

Yes, I would say a fair few of the courses I really rate highly are not too expensive though I can't think of one I would call cheap as chips, but to be fair, all of the courses I really rate highly are good value (in the sense that sometimes good value ain't cheap) in my book or I wouldn't think so well of them.  As I said before, I don't think the architecture of the top courses is really all that varying in quality.  Most of the time its down to personal tastes and we try to find ways to "objectify" these tastes rather than just accept the subjective nature of gca. 

You could be right about superstar designs - I don't know because I haven't played most of the courses you mention.  I think Tobacco Road and Lakewood are both excellent - the sort of course I think is worth a days detour.  TR has a chance to be considered one of the significant designs of its time because of its bold combination of the heroic/strategic/penal styles.  I don't think Lakewood has a shot at this sort of thing, but it is an excellent example of good strategic golf.  For me, at the moment, Lederach falls a bit short of this despite what I think is brilliant use of bunkers.  As I always say, can a course be truly great if bunkering is its primary asset?  However, in Ledrach's case it is on a good rolling piece of land even if the turf isn't brilliant, but the housing and poor walk go a ways to offsetting this advantage.  If this course were a better walk without housing intrusion I would think that much more of it. 

Ciao

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

The "big guns" you refer to is a bit more wider than just simply the Oakmonts, TOC, Augusta's, PV's, etc, etc.

Appreciation for architecture can take many different routes and the notion that courses under a certain dollar threshold are junior league alternatives is not the case. I know you didn't say junior league alternatives but your response that either a course is "significant or it ain't" gives me reason to believe that you view such courses as more of a sideshow than a main event.

Sean, the issue of price may be completely irrelevant for your personal golf visits. For many others it's critical because the idea that they will be teeing it up at Sand Hills or Oakmont anytime soon is likely not going to happen.

No doubt personal tastes play a major role in how people accept or reject different courses. My comments were not meant to "objectify" those tastes but to highlight the importance in saluting courses that don't require a second mortgage to play them and at the same time have high architectural qualities worthy of notice and special consideration when visiting such areas.

I don't disagree with you take on TR -- but the price point there is beyond what I mentioned here. That should not prevent those so inclined from playing there if their personal wallet can handle the costs. Ditto on Lakewood - your point on The Gailes does make for another course for consideration on what's provided there design wise. I just don't see it being as unique and noteworthy as the likes of Black Mesa, Wild Horse, Rustic Canyon, etc, etc.

Last item on Lederach -- when you speak about the turf I have to ask how soon after the course opened did you play it. I've been to the place twice and the second time was far better.

You also mention "poor walk" -- I don't see what's so poor about it. There are more hillier courses than Lederach -- heck, I dare say an 18-hole stroll over Bethpage Black is a good bit more strenuous.

Sean, too often people lower assessments on courses because housing is nearby -- the issue is whether the housing really impacts the actual architecture. In a similar vein I've heard people badmouth Rustic Canyon because they see the driving range net when you walk up on the 18th hole. No doubt it's a personal and subjective consideration but I would not elevate such items to the more core areas which I outlined previously.

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