How Do You See The Open Courses?

[Sean_A]

The recent GB&I rankings and thread about average players and architecture got me thinking about the Open courses.  I don't think it is any secret that I don't rate most of the Open courses nearly as high as most.  I also find it interesting that with the exception of TOC and Sandwich, the best Open courses are some of the ones no longer used.  I have listed the order I would place the Open courses as if listed as best of GB&I.

3* - I will let you know when I see one!
2* - Can organize an overseas trip around this one course as being what you really came to see
1* - Worth a day's detour/adding an extra day to itinerary to see
R - If in the vicinity have a go/A good fallback on course/Fill out a trip

Sandwich 2*- top 1-5 (comfortably the best Open course)
Prestwick 2*- top 5-10 (its probably best the R&A decided to put this gem in the pasture)
Portrush 1*- top 10-15 (of the past Open venues, this one deserves another Open the most)
TOC 1*- top 15-20
Deal 1*- top 20-40
Muirfield 1*- top 40-50 (the rough really holds this course back)
Birkdale 1*- top 40-50
Hoylake R - top 55-65

Carnoustie, Lytham, Troon are too bloody difficult.  Turnberry is "nice".  All are all defaulted to top 60-75 and Rs if only because they are open courses, but I am in no way enamoured with any of them. 

Musselburgh Old - top 125-150.

I didn't count Princes because its a totally different course. 

How do you lot see the Open courses?

As an aside to offer some context here is how I see some of my favourites.

St Enodoc & N Berwick both 2* - top 5
Pennard 1* - top 5-10
Addington, Lahinch, Dornoch all 1*-  top 10-15
Brora 1*- top 20-30
Machrihanish & Burnham  both R - top 45-60


Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean,

I can see your ratings especially on your pet courses from an all around fun place to play golf viewpoint. I do think GW gets the mix right by not purely going on championship courses and highly rating some gems, such as West Sussex, Rye, Hankley & Swinley.

Of the Open courses I've played I go;

TOC
Muirfield
Sandwich
Lytham
Deal
Prestwick
Hoylake
Princes

[Rich Goodale]

On the Richelin Scale (each grouping in alphabetical order)

3*** (World Top 30/Doak 9 or 10)

Birkdale
Carnousite
Muirfield
Portrush
Sandwich
Turnberry

2**(World Top 31-150 or so/Doak 7 or

Deal
Hoylake
Lytham
Prestwick
TOC
Troon

1* (A must replay, but lacking some je ne sais quoi)

none--maybe Princes, but haven't seen it

0* (should play, but no burning need to replay)

Old Musselburgh

[Sean_A]

On the Richelin Scale (each grouping in alphabetical order)

3*** (World Top 30/Doak 9 or 10)

Birkdale
Carnousite
Muirfield
Portrush
Sandwich
Turnberry

2**(World Top 31-150 or so/Doak 7 or

Deal
Hoylake
Lytham
Prestwick
TOC
Troon

1* (A must replay, but lacking some je ne sais quoi)

none--maybe Princes, but haven't seen it

0* (should play, but no burning need to replay)

Old Musselburgh

Very fine Rihc.  I will add the Rihcelin Scale as well. 

Could both of you, that is Chappers and Rich, add some context on how these Open venues fit into some of your other favourites.

Rich, I will go back and add Rihcelin Stars n Rs.

Ciao

[Ed Tilley]

Sean,

I have only played 4 Open courses: Sandwich, Turnberry, Portrush, and Carnoustie. I would rank them as follows:

Carnoustie - I enjoyed it a lot, although it was astonishingly difficult. If I hadn't played very well it probably would have beaten me up too much. I doubt I'll be back

Turnberry - A great experience. I came off the course thinking it was the best course I'd ever played (some years ago). However, there are a number of holes I have absolutely no recollection of (1-3, 12-14). One day I'll return, in large part due to the hotel.

Sandwich - A real surprise. If I'm honest I was expecting a bit of a slog, probably due to Open coverage concentrating on the last few, flat, holes. I was not expecting the sheer fun and charm of the place. From the moment where the secretary looked at my brother as if he'd inappropriately propositioned his daughter when we offered to pay for coffee, to the mad gentleman in the starter hut, to the fun of the front nine, to the challenge of the back nine, this was a wonderful experience. A top 1-5 course.

Portrush - Wonderful course, although I wouldn't like to play it with the rough up. Suffered a bit in comparison to RCD which we played next day - but then I don't know a course that doesn't suffer in comparison to RCD. A great day in conjunction with the Valley which is criminally underrated.

[wsmorrison]

I've played 8 Open courses.  While I enjoyed them all, and they are all so different, I found it fairly easy to order a list of favorites in 4 tiers.

TOC
Sandwich

Prestwick
Muirfield

Ailsa
Deal

Carnoustie
Troon

[Deucie Bies]

I don't know what I am missing about Turnberry, but I was not overly impressed.  I usually remember all holes of a golf course.  I really struggle remembering half of the holes out there.  That tells me a lot right there.  I enjoyed the Muirfield experience and thought it was very difficult due to the rough. 

[Philippe Binette]

I didn't felt like Lytham was overly difficult, compare to Troon which looked flat out impossible for the back tee.

As far as ranking goes (haven't seen St. Georges), on the point that what is the best course to hold the Open, not necessarily the best architecture.

Muirfield
Lytham
TOC
Troon
Carnoustie
Liverpool
Birkdale

[Anthony Fowler]

Interesting post Sean.  You say that you give the Open courses a bump in your personal ranking, putting them at least in the top 75 just because they are chosen by the R&A.  

To the rest of us, it seems like you might be biasing against the Open courses.  Maybe you dislike them because they are long and difficult and lack the quirk of other courses in GB&I.  Maybe you select against exactly the things that the R&A selects for.

I challenge you to tell us the truth and not just tell us something that makes your point.  Can you really think of 60 UK courses better than Carnoustie, Turnberry, Troon, and Lytham? You don't have to name them to us, but think about it.  Thanks.

[Sean_A]

Interesting post Sean.  You say that you give the Open courses a bump in your personal ranking, putting them at least in the top 75 just because they are chosen by the R&A.  

To the rest of us, it seems like you might be biasing against the Open courses.  Maybe you dislike them because they are long and difficult and lack the quirk of other courses in GB&I.  Maybe you select against exactly the things that the R&A selects for.

I challenge you to tell us the truth and not just tell us something that makes your point.  Can you really think of 60 UK courses better than Carnoustie, Turnberry, Troon, and Lytham? You don't have to name them to us, but think about it.  Thanks.

Anthony

You are right, I do give four of the Open courses a bit of a boost only because I think I must have missed something or they wouldn't be selected for the Open.  I don't really keep track of best courses as much as how I outlined the Rihcelin Scale above.  Other than huge differences in quality of design, I don't really know how to go about figuring out the best courses.  I can't come up with any iron clad objective notions of what best is so I go on my subjective ideas, which is more or less what I think are good courses with the "extras"often deciding on which I prefer.  So no, I can't tell you 60 courses better than Troon, Turnberry, Lytham and Carnoustie, but I can give a long list of courses I think are good to great and which I would rather play. 

As an aside, I was trying to gauge how people felt about Open venues in relation to other courses they deem good/great/favourite or whatever.  I think everybody boosts Open courses only because they are Open courses.  I would hazard a guess and say the same thing happens in the States.

Ciao

[John Goodman]

Sean - here is how I would tier them (and in rough order within tiers).  I have only played six of the present/former Open courses.

I (Doak 9ish)
Royal Co. Down
Royal Portrush
Royal Dornoch
Ballybunion Old
Royal St. George
Turnberry Ailsa

II (Doak 8ish)
TOC
Lahinch
Muirfield
Prestwick
North Berwick
Carnoustie
Western Gailes
Enniscrone
Cruden Bay
Portmarnock

III (Doak 7ish)
Carne
Waterville
Brora
Doonbeg

IV (Doak 6ish)
Portstewart
Seaton Carew
Rosse's Point
Nairn
Hunstanton
Golspie

V (less than 6 for sure)
Crail
Ardglass
BBunion Cashen
Hayling Island

John

[Melvyn Morrow]

The Open which courses would I select.

First point is not the course but can the locations hold the event, because in truth all courses can hold the Open, just requiring the player to adjust to the course. Although today we tend to pamper the players to much.

Re courses, the ideal sites would be Prestwick, TOC, Leith and Old Musselburgh. But I don’t see that happening because of various problems. I certainly do not see the need to export the Open South of the border. This is not anti anyone, it is just about time England had their own Open. But then that will not happen unless the UK breaks up. I am not for that.

However the major stumbling block is the R&A, who I believe are not currently grasping the nettle and working for the good of the game but for a certain amount of sliver coins. Yet as I have said before they do not lack talent and ideas, but are the right people in the right positions – only time will answer that one.

So back to real golf on real courses REQUIRING THE PLAYERS TO PLAY THE COURSE AND NOT THEIR STANDARD GAME. Expect many will complain but surely the idea is to test the player and to utilise all his experience and skill to earn the right to be The Champion.

The Professional game is becoming a wham bam thank you - I’m now off to the Bank performance on super tailored and manicured courses so as not to stress our dear multi-millionaire golfers or upset their Major courtship with spectators and sponsors. It’s a competition to see who has the best skill, so lets give them a normal course with its own limitations and watch with pleasure and joy as they overcome the problems that us mortal golfers struggle with on a day to day basis.  Or do you think that will testing our Heroes too much?

Golf is about us, our game, and our experiences. To win a Championship I want to see players playing on a normal course used by all so that we can equate to the shot, the put and the game.

So back to course selection, Prestwick where it all started, TOC the Home of Golf and a great course, Leith to continue the tradition and challenge of a non super courses and Old Musselburgh, like St Andrews a great place to experience the old game of Golf.

Well it’s only my honest and humble opinion and of course it will never happen, but what fun if it did. I’ll just keep dreaming.

[Tom Huckaby]

With my eyes.

Thanks, I'll be here all week.