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Ken Moum

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Valhalla #13, what's the point?
« on: September 23, 2008, 01:45:05 PM »
Does anyone think that #13 is a good example of the "driveable" par four?

AFAIK, not one player in the Cup matches attempted it, and that's in match play!!

As a short hitter, I love the idea of a hole that encourages the bombers to go for it, especially if it has a green complex that means a hole-hi miss is going to require an extraordinary shot to make three.

But a miss at 13 is almost certainly a penalty stroke, and so the hole doesn't encourage anyone to have a go. Adding to that is its length, ~350 from the back tees, and no chance to run one up.

Conversely one of my favorite PGA Tour holes is #15 at TPC River Highlands, It has no fronting hazard, and it's short enough (under 300 yards) that everyone on tour has a chance to chase a ball up.

But the green is narrow, with water on one side and a difficult up-and-down on the other.

And, unlike Valhalla, the layup isn't a cut-and-dried decision. As a consequence, you see players put their hand on three, or even four clubs before they decide what to hit from the tee. The whole deal is a delicious little architectural head game.

A significant number of players have a go, despite it being stroke play.

Why build a driveable par four with an island green? Imagine the fun in the Ryder Cup if everyone who got to that hole with the honor had to assume his opponent was going to knock it on the green?

Ken
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Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

BVince

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Re: Valhalla #13, what's the point?
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2008, 01:55:40 PM »
Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think it is intended to be a "driveable" par 4 just because of the yardage.  I think it is a really great little par 4.  I know the green may appear gimmicky, but when you are standing in the fairway, it make you a little nervous to hit a short, solid, and touchy shot.

From the tee, the fairway is fairly generous but protected by the bunkers on both sides.  Clubbing off the tee is important because longer is not necessarily better.  You need to pick a club that will leave you a comfortable yardage into the green.  I would prefer hitting something about 90-100% versus leaving yourself 60 yards with a delicate chip over the moat. 

I like the hole.  Its challenging and fair but I would not considerate a driveable par four although it may happen on the rarest of occassions.
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Ian_L

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Re: Valhalla #13, what's the point?
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2008, 02:04:31 PM »
They had talked about moving the tee up to 267 yards, but they never did during the Ryder Cup.
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Ken Moum

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Re: Valhalla #13, what's the point?
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2008, 02:09:01 PM »
Quote from: Bryon Vincent on September 23, 2008, 01:55:40 PM
Its challenging and fair but I would not considerate a driveable par four although it may happen on the rarest of occassions.

Fair enough.

I am just not a fan of hole like that. It pretty much puts everyone in the same place off the tee, and despite being a challenge, there's not a whole lot of thought required to play it.

Ken
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Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Ken Moum

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Re: Valhalla #13, what's the point?
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2008, 02:09:57 PM »
Quote from: Ian_Linford on September 23, 2008, 02:04:31 PM
They had talked about moving the tee up to 267 yards, but they never did during the Ryder Cup.

Even at that length, it would be a silly risk to take unless you were three or four down.

Ken
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Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Valhalla #13, what's the point?
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2008, 02:18:20 PM »
Quote from: kmoum on September 23, 2008, 01:45:05 PM
Does anyone think that #13 is a good example of the "driveable" par four?

The 547 yard 18th hole is also a lousy drivable par-4.   :)
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David_Tepper

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Re: Valhalla #13, what's the point?
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2008, 02:31:25 PM »
I think I heard on TV that JB Holmes drove #13 in one of the practice rounds.

#10 at the Belfry has been an entertaining driveable par-4 in past Ryder Cups.
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Jim Franklin

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Re: Valhalla #13, what's the point?
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2008, 02:36:04 PM »
#10 at The Belfry has a bailout spot to the right. There is no bailout at Valhalla. Plus the green is about the same size as #17 at Sawgrass and those guys have problems hitting that with a 9 iron. I do not like the hole as a driveable par 4, but I do like it as a good match play hole. There were lots of birdies there and you had to be able to putt.
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Mr Hurricane

Nick Pozaric

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Re: Valhalla #13, what's the point?
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2008, 03:11:51 PM »
It was not designed to be driveable.  Azingen talked about moving the tees up one day to give them a chance to do it but they never did.  JB did knock it on from the back tees during a practice round.
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Dale_McCallon

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Re: Valhalla #13, what's the point?
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2008, 03:12:34 PM »
A co-worker who went on Wed said that JB did drive the green.

As far as short par 4s, I think the 4th was a much better hole--it was driveable (Holmes on Sunday landed on but ended up in rough, but you easily get in trouble if you hit too far left off the tee with some pretty thick rough, a bunker to pitch over and being well below the green.  
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Ken Moum

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Re: Valhalla #13, what's the point?
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2008, 03:23:03 PM »
Quote from: Nick Pozaric on September 23, 2008, 03:11:51 PM
It was not designed to be driveable. 

I can accept that, but then it's basically a 100-yard par three.  And I don't like that type of hole.

It's like the unreachable par five with a pond in front of the green.

Boring.

Ken

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Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Kenny Baer

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Re: Valhalla #13, what's the point?
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2008, 03:37:14 PM »
Ken,
I think it is a great hole; it is by know means a given that you will hit a 200 yd+ shot exactly where you want; if you do then you make it a 100 yd par 3.  Did you see Mickelson hit it to 2 ft from the left bunker on Friday?

That hole was not built as a driveable par 4 by any means; I think that is an insult to Nicklaus to think that he would ever even consider building an island green par 4 (driveable); he wouldn't and I can't imagine anyone who would.

I love medium length par 4's which is what this is; the stragegy is off the tee, how far do you want to leave you 2nd shot, that should require quite a bit of deliberation.
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Jason McNamara

Re: Valhalla #13, what's the point?
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2008, 07:08:15 PM »
That green, btw, looks as if it had been plonked on top of a ruined Martello Tower.  Somehow doesn't remind one of Felixstowe, however.
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Daryl "Turboe" Boe

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Re: Valhalla #13, what's the point?
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2008, 08:11:53 PM »
I played it for the second time about a month ago.  And I can tell you that from my perspective, it is alot like 17 at sawgrass from the standpoint that you start thinking about that green at least 4 holes before you get there.  And I love that aspect.  It is basically like a 17 at Sawgrass where you can decide what club you want to hit off the tee to try to determine what length you get to play the "Par 3" portion of the hole from.

The tee shot for most mortals is strategic enough to cause you to grind over where you want to hit it, and you know if you dont it the tee shot like you intended you are probably not going to like your approach to that nerve racking green.

I wasnt as big of fan of the hole the first time I played it many years ago, but it grew on me this time.  Last time I was by myself with nothing on the line by my personal scorecard, and came upon it without really knowing much about the hole.  This time in a group of friends with some bragging rights and our normal bet on the line it was a great hole that weighs on your mind for some time.

That whole finishing stretch of holes from there on is nerve racking and ball-busting.
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Matt Kardash

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Re: Valhalla #13, what's the point?
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2008, 08:52:41 PM »
Quote from: Kenny Baer on September 23, 2008, 03:37:14 PM
Ken,
I think it is a great hole; it is by know means a given that you will hit a 200 yd+ shot exactly where you want; if you do then you make it a 100 yd par 3.  Did you see Mickelson hit it to 2 ft from the left bunker on Friday?

That hole was not built as a driveable par 4 by any means; I think that is an insult to Nicklaus to think that he would ever even consider building an island green par 4 (driveable); he wouldn't and I can't imagine anyone who would.

I love medium length par 4's which is what this is; the stragegy is off the tee, how far do you want to leave you 2nd shot, that should require quite a bit of deliberation.

A "great' hole? Seems like that might be some pretty strong wording. Essentially it's a hole where everyone hits an iron to the same spot in the fairway and then you hit  to a green that is built upon a pile of boulders. I don't think anyone would call that a "great" hole.
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Bill Brightly

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Re: Valhalla #13, what's the point?
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2008, 10:26:47 PM »
That green complex makes Raynor look like a naturalist ;)
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Rob Rigg

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Re: Valhalla #13, what's the point?
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2008, 10:53:35 PM »
Ugliest hole ever?

Aesthetically, it is an abomination.

For match play, it was interesting because you SHOULD make birdie, which cranked up the pressure on the second shot despite the short distance.

Steve Stricker almost put it in the moat on Saturday which was interesting. I would rather be 75 to 100 yards out than chipping on at 40 "mais chacon son gout"
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JR Potts

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Re: Valhalla #13, what's the point?
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2008, 09:32:45 PM »
JB hit 3 wood on the green during the practice round.

And I sat at #13 all day on Thursday....I thought it was a tremendous hole.  I just wish there was a little more of a false front so as to penalize wedges hit with too much spin.  There were some shots hit in there with way too much spin that weren't properly reflected in the result.
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tlavin

Re: Valhalla #13, what's the point?
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2008, 10:08:47 AM »
It sure was boring on television: hit the middle of the fairway, put a wedge within 5-15 feet of the flagstick, try to make the putt.  Since they were in match play, I doubt that they kept the scoring average, but it had to be a pretty easy hole.  Maybe Ryan is right; if the green was tilted back to front in a dramatic way, you'd probably see a lot of balls in the water.  And then you'd hear moaning like we heard about the 17th at Valderrama.
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Nick Pozaric

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Re: Valhalla #13, what's the point?
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2008, 08:05:05 PM »
Quote from: Terry Lavin on September 25, 2008, 10:08:47 AM
It sure was boring on television: hit the middle of the fairway, put a wedge within 5-15 feet of the flagstick, try to make the putt.  Since they were in match play, I doubt that they kept the scoring average, but it had to be a pretty easy hole.  Maybe Ryan is right; if the green was tilted back to front in a dramatic way, you'd probably see a lot of balls in the water.  And then you'd hear moaning like we heard about the 17th at Valderrama.
Not sure how many but there were several balls in the water
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