Vahalla's 7th versus the original Lido's 4th (The Channel Hole)

[JNC Lyon]

From seeing Valhalla on television (I know, not a great way to judge a course) and from reading about MacDonald's original 4th at the Lido, I have been wondering how similar the concepts of these two holes are.

For the Ryder Cup and the match play format, it seems the left route at Valhalla is a no-brainer.  However, due to the newly enhanced penal nature of the second shot, does it provide different options for

a) a Stroke Play event?
b) good amateur players?

If so (and I would think it does: I know I would choose not to go left), shouldn't hole be held in a similar regard as the Channel Hole at the Lido? Both contain the same basic options: a tradeoff between two heroic but potentially disastrous shots to make birdie and three easier yet unrewarding shots to make par.  Therefore, why has the Lido's original Channel Hole gained so much praise in the golf architecture world, while Valhalla's 7th has gained recognition only as kitschy and silly?

[Kirk Stewart]

From seeing Valhalla on television (I know, not a great way to judge a course) and from reading about MacDonald's original 4th at the Lido, I have been wondering how similar the concepts of these two holes are.

For the Ryder Cup and the match play format, it seems the left route at Valhalla is a no-brainer.  However, due to the newly enhanced penal nature of the second shot, does it provide different options for

a) a Stroke Play event?
b) good amateur players?

If so (and I would think it does: I know I would choose not to go left), shouldn't hole be held in a similar regard as the Channel Hole at the Lido? Both contain the same basic options: a tradeoff between two heroic but potentially disastrous shots to make birdie and three easier yet unrewarding shots to make par.  Therefore, why has the Lido's original Channel Hole gained so much praise in the golf architecture world, while Valhalla's 7th has gained recognition only as kitschy and silly?

JNC,

What is so penal about the second shot from the left fairway ?

[JNC Lyon]

From seeing Valhalla on television (I know, not a great way to judge a course) and from reading about MacDonald's original 4th at the Lido, I have been wondering how similar the concepts of these two holes are.

For the Ryder Cup and the match play format, it seems the left route at Valhalla is a no-brainer.  However, due to the newly enhanced penal nature of the second shot, does it provide different options for

a) a Stroke Play event?
b) good amateur players?

If so (and I would think it does: I know I would choose not to go left), shouldn't hole be held in a similar regard as the Channel Hole at the Lido? Both contain the same basic options: a tradeoff between two heroic but potentially disastrous shots to make birdie and three easier yet unrewarding shots to make par.  Therefore, why has the Lido's original Channel Hole gained so much praise in the golf architecture world, while Valhalla's 7th has gained recognition only as kitschy and silly?

JNC,

What is so penal about the second shot from the left fairway ?

The non-negotiable 200+ plus carry over water.  Remember if you hit in the water on that second shot the only option is to drop at the end of the fairway and face the same shot again.  There is room to the right, but if you want any chance of  birdie you have to carry the water by a small margin, no matter what line you take.

[Kirk Stewart]

From seeing Valhalla on television (I know, not a great way to judge a course) and from reading about MacDonald's original 4th at the Lido, I have been wondering how similar the concepts of these two holes are.

For the Ryder Cup and the match play format, it seems the left route at Valhalla is a no-brainer.  However, due to the newly enhanced penal nature of the second shot, does it provide different options for

a) a Stroke Play event?
b) good amateur players?

If so (and I would think it does: I know I would choose not to go left), shouldn't hole be held in a similar regard as the Channel Hole at the Lido? Both contain the same basic options: a tradeoff between two heroic but potentially disastrous shots to make birdie and three easier yet unrewarding shots to make par.  Therefore, why has the Lido's original Channel Hole gained so much praise in the golf architecture world, while Valhalla's 7th has gained recognition only as kitschy and silly?

JNC,

What is so penal about the second shot from the left fairway ?

The non-negotiable 200+ plus carry over water.  Remember if you hit in the water on that second shot the only option is to drop at the end of the fairway and face the same shot again.  There is room to the right, but if you want any chance of  birdie you have to carry the water by a small margin, no matter what line you take.

Pheww..So you saw the same thing I did. I'm glad I didn't drop the $30 co-pay to have my eyes checked. 

[Tom_Doak]

I didn't see any of the Ryder Cup, so I don't know how well the revamped 7th hole worked for the event.  However, the reputation of the hole was tarnished when they made the left-hand option O.B. for the last PGA Championship at Valhalla and put corporate tents over there.

If they had done the same thing to the fourth hole at Lido, Mr. Macdonald would have shut down the markets!

[Nick Pozaric]

I didn't see any of the Ryder Cup, so I don't know how well the revamped 7th hole worked for the event.  However, the reputation of the hole was tarnished when they made the left-hand option O.B. for the last PGA Championship at Valhalla and put corporate tents over there.

If they had done the same thing to the fourth hole at Lido, Mr. Macdonald would have shut down the markets!

The left fairway was closed for the '96 PGA but open for the '00 PGA and '04 Senior PGA.

[John Kavanaugh]

The 7th is the Gambler on steroids.  I love both holes but doubt that I'm good enough to take the risk at Valhalla when the Gambler is no more than a 6 iron to the green.  If my information is accurate Valhalla was built ten years before Kings North.

[JNC Lyon]

I too thought about that hole at Kings North (Ron Whitten seems to be a fan of the hole from his interview on this site).

The original 7th at Valhalla was not as interesting because the left fairway second shot was much was easier.  The water hazard (then just a swamp) was pulled back from the green, allowing players to hit a less-than brilliant second shot and still have a relatively easy chance for biridie.  I think I gained much more respect for the hole as it is now then how it played for the 2000 PGA, when the course was a par 68 for Woods.

[Bruce Leland]

I thought the hole worked brilliantly in a match play format.  I'm not so sure that the leader in a stroke play event wouldn't take the right hand route.  In fact, I was quite surprised to see JB Holmes hit driver there both days to the left when he certainly has the distance to cut off much of the lake by going to the right.  Why choke down on a driver and have a very exacting second shot to a narrow target when he could go at the green in two from the right?