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Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
“We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« on: September 22, 2008, 05:55:17 PM »
I read this article on the Golf Digest site:
http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/2008/10/privateclubs_carney
and I came across the following as one of the reasons for the declining popularity of/participation in golf:

“We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”

Okay, I understand that this is the case. Basically, parents (mostly dads) who would otherwise spend X amount of time playing golf spend all or part of that time going to soccer, baseball, ballet, karate etcetera, for their kids. Often this is described as “spending more time with the family” or “putting the family first”. But to me, this seems to be false. How is spending two hours on your ass, in the bleachers, watching your kid have fun, “spending more time” with him or her? While the prevailing wisdom may be a simple factual error, what really bugs me is that doing the previously mentioned activities is thought of as virtuous because it involves “spending more time with the family”. I would argue that if it is virtuous, it is so because the family is sacrificing together time to allow junior to achieve his baseball dream.

The previous (tongue in cheek) rant leads me to my golf angle. Why hasn’t/can’t golf (I hate saying “the golf industry” for some reason) step in and promote itself as a family activity that promotes exercise, togetherness and fun in a way that the aformentioned activities (and countless others) cannot and do not? Now I realize that there is not a pat answer and that golf is not the panacea to family togetherness, but with that said, I am curious to hear as many ideas as possible on this.

Charlie
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Tom Huckaby

Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2008, 06:05:22 PM »
Charlie:'

This rather hits home with me as I have indeed ceded nearly all of my time to my kids in this manner.

I do so without regret.  I know having played sports as a kid myself how much it does mean to have Dad there watching.  But the bottom line is more this, for me anyway:  golf is a selfish activity.  It's something I do, not them.  Oh from time to time I take the kids to play, and that's all well and good, great fun.  But golf remains way more my thing than theirs.  It can't necessarily be a family thing anyway, as no way am I taking little kids to crowded public courses on weekends, nor to other places I get invited.  It's just not practical, nor fun really.

SO... to answer some of your questions:

1. Watching them play is not just spending time with them, it's doing something meaningful for them, and in the end it's pretty darn fun.  I enjoy watching my kids play sports.  If it requires me to miss golf so be it.  Golf remains selfish; I just plain won't miss their games for any selfish pursuit.  And I don't do it to be virtuous; I do it because I enjoy it, and I know it means something to my kids to have me there.  To me that's more important than yet another golf round.

2. Golf can and does promote itself as a family activity, and as I say, at times it works.  But not very often - not in a way that will be most enjoyable for all, anyway.  And precious few kids are gonna give up all of their other sports just to play golf with Dad (or Mom) anyway.

Hopefully this helps.

TH

« Last Edit: September 22, 2008, 06:07:59 PM by Tom Huckaby »

John Kavanaugh

Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2008, 06:06:07 PM »
Because by the time children are old enough to play on weekend mornings they are no longer interested in playing with dad.  I do love the commercials showing dad and some 6 year old each carrying a bag walking down the fairway, sometimes mom and sis are even walking right along with them.  The reality of young children walking 18 holes in 4 hours is anything but.  I would go so far to say that these parents who give up their lives for junior sports are more likely to end their marriages in divorce than the traditional family where the man plays golf with his buds on weekend mornings.  Dads who show up for sports are far less valuable than a dad at the dinner table.  When it comes to weekend golf, play golf for your children not with your children.  My daughter always told me "A dad who is sane is not such a pain."

JohnV

Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2008, 06:10:46 PM »
I run the NCGA's Junior Tour.  Every group that tees off has one or more parents accompanying the kids.  While I think it is great for the parents to support their kids, I also think that many of the kids would be a lot happier if Mom and/or Dad wasn't following them every step of the way.

Because our events are on weekends, more parents can see their kids play and I'm sure we have a higher than average turnout of parents.

I do feel that it would be better for parents to be playing a sport with their kids than just watching and golf is probably the best one for that.  The golf industry is trying to promote this, but it needs to do a better job.  

If I were running a public course and had free tee times, I'd let every person who played 18 holes on Saturday or Sunday morning come back and play another 9 that afternoon with one of their kids for a much lower price.  Possibly even offer them an evening time during the week.

Dad can play with his buddies in the morning and bring his son out in the afternoon.

I remember my mom taking me to the tool and die shop where my dad worked so that he and I could go play 9 holes after work when I was about 11 or 12.  It was the best time I got to spend with him and certainly better than having him come and watch me play Little League.

TX Golf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2008, 06:30:07 PM »
This is coming from someone who is not all the far removed from high school sports. My dad shares similar thoughts to those of Mr. Huckaby in that he says he enjoyed/enjoys watching my brothers and I play sports. However, and I don't know if this is coming from my pure love of the game, most of the time I wish he would have gone and played with a regular group early on Saturday mornings. I understand if it is the State Championship or something of large stature, but otherwise go and spend a morning with your buddies and have a great time. You just spent Monday-Friday working your but off, go relax and have a nice lunch and then go and catch the afternoon soccer game. That is the other thing. I remember there were times when I had three games throughout the day. Dad would be there at the 8:00, 12:00, and 4:00 game. Does a parent really need to be there for all three games. I don't know if this is me being young and naive, but I plan on Saturday morning being my time for some golf with the buddies when I am older. There are obvious exceptions and maybe my opinion will change, but that is where I stand right now.

Robert

Tom Huckaby

Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2008, 06:36:05 PM »
Interesting stuff here.

But methinks it's getting too personal.  We all have our reasons for doing things when it comes to family; and it's not nearly as cut and dried as pithy comments in here might allow.

I for one never regretted my Dad being there for any of my games as a kid... and I have never heard my kids tell me I ought to be out playing more golf.  I have had them ask me where I was, the few games I have missed.

It's all in perspective, I guess; and it would also depend on one's relationships parent-child and child-parent.

TH


TX Golf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2008, 06:41:17 PM »
Tom,

Not trying to make it personal at all. Also, I have never regretted my Dad being there for any of my sporting events. However, there might be a couple of other things that shaped my feelings. First of all, even though I ran track, played soccer and lacrosse, my heart has always been with golf. I would love to hear him talk of his round after he ever went out and played. Also, this is my opinion 4-5 years removed from the situation. At the time when I look back I really appreciated my parents always being there, but when I look back at it now, I feel that I wouldn't have cared if he missed a game or so every now and then to go play golf. Being one of four brothers, and looking back on it, my parents probably never really had any time to themselves as they were always at our games. But like you said, it is all a personal family issue, but it is an interesting topic to discuss if everyone around here could be civil.

Robert

JohnV

Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2008, 06:47:26 PM »
I have had them ask me where I was, the few games I have missed.

That is because you've set their expectation level.

My dad didn't come out to my games very often, usually because he was working so I didn't expect him.  If he did show up, it made it more special.

I should keep out of this because I don't have kids so I don't know how I'd feel if I was a parent.

John Kavanaugh

Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2008, 06:54:13 PM »

But like you said, it is all a personal family issue, but it is an interesting topic to discuss if everyone around here could be civil.


Oh boy, one of the reasons I do not follow my son during his middle school golf matches and tournaments is that as a golfer he needs to learn how to defend his score and protect the field on his own.  It is painful when the majority of parents don't know the rules and only count each stroke of every kid but their own, especially when kids get separated as golfers often do.  Somehow, somewhere, sometime we need to let our children learn failure, unfairness and how to fight back against injustice.  Golf is the only sport without referees to do it for them.  It is the perfect time and space to let a child grow.

Please let me know when I hurt someones feelings on this thread.

TX Golf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2008, 06:57:05 PM »
John,

Completely agree with you on that. There is also a large difference between stating your own opinions and attacking those of others. I usually have no problem with the majority of stuff said on this website. However, I could quickly see someone being called a shitty father for missing a soccer game or something like that if this thread went in the wrong direction.

Robert

John Kavanaugh

Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2008, 06:58:55 PM »
John,

Completely agree with you on that. There is also a large difference between stating your own opinions and attacking those of others. I usually have no problem with the majority of stuff said on this website. However, I could quickly see someone being called a shitty father for missing a soccer game or something like that if this thread went in the wrong direction.

Robert

Robert,

Newsflash: Barney's feelings getting hurt here were not the concern.

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2008, 07:04:39 PM »
Two summers ago one of my boys was on a baseball team and our entire family went to nearly every game; my wife and I, and ourother 6 children - all 9 of us.

We had the greatest time. My oldest daughter was married the next summer. Looking back on those ball games, that was the most time that we all did one thing together as a family, and I'm glad we had that time before my oldest was married.

But I think you make a good point Charlie. I just wonder if there are a lot more men on their second marriage these days than there were in the good old days, and those guys on their second marriage do not want to go through all of that hell again. So they pay more attention to the family things. Just a theory.

Jay Flemma

Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2008, 07:22:24 PM »
My dad had the best solution.  Teach the family golf.  Then all go play together.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2008, 07:23:30 PM »
The previous (tongue in cheek) rant leads me to my golf angle. Why hasn’t/can’t golf (I hate saying “the golf industry” for some reason) step in and promote itself as a family activity that promotes exercise, togetherness and fun in a way that the aformentioned activities (and countless others) cannot and do not?

Why isn't it a family activity?

When it costs about $100 just for a family of three to play a twilight round on weekend (with cart), golf is not going to be a family activity that we can enjoy every weekend.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2008, 07:24:23 PM »
Because by the time children are old enough to play on weekend mornings they are no longer interested in playing with dad. ...

I see this as a problem with American society. Why is it necessary for teenagers to essentially divorce themselves from their family life to spend so much time with what perhaps could be described as an experimental ethnic group of little cultural history? Other teenagers of questionable common sense and decision making ability.

If I am reading too much into what John wrote, I am sure he will let me know.

As an aside, I would point out that one TW did not follow John's perscription.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2008, 07:26:45 PM »
My dad had the best solution.  Teach the family golf.  Then all go play together.

My dad taught the kids golf and we went to play together. I am convinced he didn't include my mom, because he was afraid she would beat him. ;) After all, she could beat him at roundball.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

TX Golf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2008, 07:29:33 PM »
My parents and brother's and I have a very close family, but I remember when I dad would talk the four of us (brothers) golfing, my mom was more than happy to stay at home. Even though he enjoys golf, a few hours of peace and quiet around the house was probably more enjoyable for her. Besides that a sixsome was a little problematic.

John Kavanaugh

Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2008, 07:42:57 PM »


As an aside, I would point out that one TW did not follow John's perscription.


Tiger Woods was blessed with the genetic makeup to be the greatest golfer in the world.  My children were not so lucky.  Each of my children have experienced failure at one point of their lives when I have had to remind them that they are their parents kids.  They will only be so smart, so fast, so tall, so beautiful or so thin.  Lucky for them working harder, loving more, forgiving their enemies and carring themselves with grace and compassion is not something so easily inherited...or not.


TEPaul

Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2008, 07:44:09 PM »
It's all the fault of that guy, what was his name? Was it Dr Spock?

That guy completely ruined the recreation time of adults all over the world about forty years ago and for the foreseeable future by convincing people that children and their opinions should actually be seriously listened to.

That was essentially the end of the world as I used to know it.

I grew up in a world that you spoke if you were spoken to and if you violated that basic tenet too often and too aggressively with your parents and their generation it would be treated as if you hadn't said a thing or at least that noone actually heard you (and this gets into that lovely ability articulated by Oscar Wilde's adage, "The exact and precise time to know when to say NOTHING!" By that, of course, I mean your parents and their generation to children).

If your parents were rich they got a nanny for the children so they didn't have to pay attention to them and they could go out and play golf all day or whatever or even leave the children alone with the nanny for days or weeks at a time and just go have nothing but fun, fun, fun----eg golf, parties, you name it.

And if your parents weren't rich and couldn't afford a nanny to keep their children out of their hair and their recreations, they applied the philosophy of that glorious English eccentric around the time of the Second World War who said and most seriously----"Just let the little nippers run wild."

The latter actually was the best method of all to develop in children a good imagination, self-reliance, the everlastingly important ability to be patient or at least not to be totally into instant self-gratification!

That kind of thing BEFORE Spock foisted this plague on human-kind created a world of what Brokaw called "The Greatest Generation" and he was probably right.

And then along comes this guy Dr. Spock who released on the world a philosophy and culture worse than the Holacaust---eg he made the world feel that the opinions of children actually matter.

MY GOD, SPOCK, did you not realize that if you let the little nippers run wild on their own they are a whole lot more resilient than most give them credit for and they will grow up to be far more resilient adults than the crop of yammering, little instant-gratification, no-neck monsters the world has spawned in the last half century known as the "Me Generation"?

(If someone actually tells me to shut up or else add a smiley face to this post I'm going to throw up all over this thread).

 
Bob Huntley, don't you dare try to look me in the eye and tell me I'm not right about this!
« Last Edit: September 22, 2008, 07:52:39 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Mosely

Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2008, 07:49:06 PM »
The previous (tongue in cheek) rant leads me to my golf angle. Why hasn’t/can’t golf (I hate saying “the golf industry” for some reason) step in and promote itself as a family activity that promotes exercise, togetherness and fun in a way that the aformentioned activities (and countless others) cannot and do not?

Why isn't it a family activity?

When it costs about $100 just for a family of three to play a twilight round on weekend (with cart), golf is not going to be a family activity that we can enjoy every weekend.

hy sure you can...if you the wife and two kids can play for $100, tasts a steal...I was worried it'd be twice as bad or more.

TX Golf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2008, 07:49:50 PM »
"The Greatest Generation" is a great book. It is interesting to read that and then think of how different many things are today. You should all give it a read if you have the chance. Also, if you really think back to the days when you were kids, I bet your greatest memories aren't those of the afternoon family gathering with mom and dad. They were most likely some of the crazy and great times that you had getting into trouble with your friends. You live and learn from your mistakes.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2008, 07:58:46 PM »

Tiger Woods was blessed with the genetic makeup to be the greatest golfer in the world.  ...

 ??? That's about as accurate as your usual stuff.  :P
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Kavanaugh

Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2008, 08:02:27 PM »

Tiger Woods was blessed with the genetic makeup to be the greatest golfer in the world.  ...

 ??? That's about as accurate as your usual stuff.  :P

Garland,

Are you saying that any kid could be the greatest golfer in the world if they work hard enough and get all the proper support?  Or lets make it easier, make the PGA Tour?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2008, 08:10:32 PM »
Why isn't it a family activity?

When it costs about $100 just for a family of three to play a twilight round on weekend (with cart), golf is not going to be a family activity that we can enjoy every weekend.

Richard,

This isn't CartballClubAtlas.  ;D I absolutely hate seeing kids in carts. They have so much energy I am jealous! Why put them in a cart?

I would note that there are clubs that are family clubs. One dues covers the whole family. Richard, perhaps you should find one to join. They may not be the greatest golf courses in the world, but they do the trick when it comes to family enjoyment.

With regards to how far you can go from such a start, I would suggest there are a couple of Kentuckians from humble courses that did quite well at the Ryder Cup last weekend.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2008, 08:14:02 PM »

Tiger Woods was blessed with the genetic makeup to be the greatest golfer in the world.  ...

 ??? That's about as accurate as your usual stuff.  :P

Garland,

Are you saying that any kid could be the greatest golfer in the world if they work hard enough and get all the proper support?  Or lets make it easier, make the PGA Tour?

No John, I am saying that Tiger's genetics are no better than most of the players that make the PGA tour, and billions that don't even play golf.
It would be foolish to say any kid could do it.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne