Ballyneal vs Pacific Dunes

[Chip Gaskins]

I played Sand Hills two days ago and Ballyneal yesterday. 

In my subjective opinion, Ballyneal is better than Sand Hills.  It is more fun to play around the greens.  To me it has, on average, more options in ways to play each hole.  The par threes are better.  The par fives are better.  It plays firmer and faster.

It is simply one of my top 10, if not top 5 courses I have played. 

As far as Ballyneal versus Pacific Dunes goes, my subjective opinion is Ballyneal is better.  Pacific Dunes certainly has the ocean, but tee to green I will take Ballyneal every day.

Both are 9-10 on the Doak scale.  Golf at its best.

More to come...off to work

[Adam Clayman]

I killed it over the left side of the bunker and still had 70 yards to the middle.  But I shall take your word for it....

The far left side brings in the native that juts out into the line of play. Thats the only way I can figure you stopped at the 70 yard mark. You must've caught a piece of it to hold you up.

[Tom Huckaby]

Adam - well I don't think it caught up in anything... but oh well, the world shall never know.  I just do know I hit a hard draw over the bunker and had 70 yards in.  I can see how if one catches the downside just right, one could get it on.  I just figured that was more for the gorillas of the world, not a guy like me.

Chip - I too played both of these courses two weeks ago...  and well... Let's just say to each his own as I disagree with every statement you make and in fact would state the exact opposite.  And that is NO knock on BN, which I really did love.  But whereas it is a clear 9, to me Sand Hills is a clear 10.  To me Sand Hills remains the greatest course I have ever played, and can imagine, really.  Ballyneal is very very great.  But better than Sand Hills?  Oh well, to each his own, as I say.

Vive l'difference!

Tom H.

[Sean_A]

Sean, One of the key aspects of the openness beyond the green is the lack of a frame of reference. How may times have we all seen the opportunity for such effect only to have some hideous mounding placed, blocking views of terrain long?

Adam

I don't quite understand it.  Perhaps people naturally like things framed.  Your idea also carries over to skyline green views being disrupted by trees (a pet peeve of mine).  To be fair, there don't seem to be that many ideal opportunities to open a hole up visually, so when one comes along it should be taken advantage of.  Even on great pieces of land, dunes often enclose a course so more open vistas are greatly welcomed by me.  Plus, I believe open areas behind greens signal the player that it is "safe" back there.  Its a perfect opportunity to send mixed signals by making the recovery from there most difficult. 

Ciao

[Bart Bradley]

Adam - well I don't think it caught up in anything... but oh well, the world shall never know.  I just do know I hit a hard draw over the bunker and had 70 yards in.  I can see how if one catches the downside just right, one could get it on.  I just figured that was more for the gorillas of the world, not a guy like me.

Chip - I too played both of these courses two weeks ago...  and well... Let's just say to each his own as I disagree with every statement you make and in fact would state the exact opposite.  And that is NO knock on BN, which I really did love.  But whereas it is a clear 9, to me Sand Hills is a clear 10.  To me Sand Hills remains the greatest course I have ever played, and can imagine, really.  Ballyneal is very very great.  But better than Sand Hills?  Oh well, to each his own, as I say.

Vive l'difference!

Tom H.

Tom:

I was there with Ed and hit 3 wood from the tips day 1 and ended up 20-30 yds short in the fairway (downwind).  Day 2 I thinned a 3 wood into the bunker (ughhh)...shot of my life to 10 feet from the bunker.

It is definitely reachable (depending on the wind) and your line.

Bart

[Tom Huckaby]

Bart:

I believe you guys, for sure.  I never got a strong downwind, so it's taking a bit of imagination, that's all.

I need no imagination at SH, fortunately.   293 on rock-hard ground is something even I can manage.  

[jkinney]

IMO, Ballyneal has the better collection of holes, but the combination of ocean and gorse is so intoxicating to me that I'd have to pick Pacific Dunes if forced to make a choice. I'd take the Pacific Dunes ground over the Ballyneal holes. But this is splitting hairs, as both are near perfect.

[Scott Szabo]

Due to the massive turbo boost off the back side of the bunker the green is reachable even into a steady wind from the tips. There is no usual about that hole. I've seen quads taken from 40 yards in and 3's from the most precarious of spots.

Wow, I can't imagine that.  My one shot not into the wind, I killed it over the left side of the bunker and still had 70 yards to the middle.  But I shall take your word for it....

In any case, that's the best summation yet - there is no usual on that hole!  And therein lies its greatest strength.  What a wonderful golf hole.

Huck -

I am not a long hitter by any means, but I routinely am 10 paces from the front of the green (obviously not into a headwind).  Adam is indeed correct - the turbo boost off the back of the bunker is what allows for that to happen. 

Playing the hole into a headwind is indeed a different story, at times making it almost impossible to carry the same bunker.  The approach from about 125 or so in is a blind one if not on the extreme right side of the fairway and extremely difficult to judge.

Both you and Chip have been very lucky recently - Ballyneal AND Sand Hills on the same trip.  It can't get much better than that, can it?

One other thing - I have had the same experience on 16 that you have.  I tend to play the game from right to left, and a draw running up the center ridge has ran down and to the left into the same bowl you are referring to.  I don't much care for the stance that I'm left with, and actually prefer more to the right side of the fairway leaving a much more level stance. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Scott:

The testimony and evidence is in:  I was wrong to be dubious that 7BN can be routinely reached.  I bow in shame at my incredulity, not to mention weastick tee shots.

And you got it down into the BOWL OF ACHIEVEMENT on 16?  Good man.  I kinda liked getting it down in there (a) because only one of my friends with me was able to match me in our four rounds; and (b) because it got me to 170 in, whereas staying on top was more like 215.  In the end I think you are correct - the flat lie from up above trumps the shorter shot - but it is fun for a guy like me to get a drive out that far.

There's lots of that on BN also... several Slots of Achievement, Slots of Destiny, etc.  I was a shot-naming machine last week.

 

And yes I was and am luckier than I have any right to be.

TH

[Scott Szabo]

The BOWL OF ACHIEVEMENT it shall remain named!

Unfortunately, I routinely fan my second shot from said bowl either into the bunker or short and right of it.  The one time I played in from the level stance at about 210 like you mentioned I hit the green and made 3.

I've been speaking lately about how well I play the hole, so it's no coincidence that last time I played it, I made a 7.  The golf Gods strike back!!!

[Tom Huckaby]

One and all here have been classy and kind NOT to ask what I did AFTER reaching said BOWL.

Let's just say I fought my way to a hard-earned six.

 

Man I love that golf hole.  I've yet to play it into the wind... perhaps in that wind I'd respect and admire, but not love... seems like it must be so tough.... but anyway with the wind or with no wind, it is action-packed.  SOOOO many variables (to slip into Matt Ward mode). 

TH

[Scott Szabo]

I've never played 16 into a headwind either.  My initial thoughts are it would be very difficult to get around the bend in 2, leaving a third shot from very close to the bowl you are speaking of.  Could possibly be a hard 6 into a strong headwind.

[Bart Bradley]

One and all here have been classy and kind NOT to ask what I did AFTER reaching said BOWL.

Let's just say I fought my way to a hard-earned six.

 

Man I love that golf hole.  I've yet to play it into the wind... perhaps in that wind I'd respect and admire, but not love... seems like it must be so tough.... but anyway with the wind or with no wind, it is action-packed.  SOOOO many variables (to slip into Matt Ward mode). 

TH

Tom:

I attempted 16 twice (once into a 45 mph headwind and the other time about a 25-30mph headwind) and am not familiar with the hole you are discussing  .  To be honest, I think I hit driver and 4 iron and was short of where your drive must have ended...

Into the wind, it was hard nut to crack.

Bart

[Tom Huckaby]

I've never played 16 into a headwind either.  My initial thoughts are it would be very difficult to get around the bend in 2, leaving a third shot from very close to the bowl you are speaking of.  Could possibly be a hard 6 into a strong headwind.

That's what I was thinking also.

And you know what?

This just ADDS to the greatness, the more I think about it.

The hole is action-packed with scores from 3 to 13 achievable downwind, the 3 coming only at some pretty great risk.... and then turn the wind around and it becomes a very legitimate tough three shotter...

Combine it with 17 and 18, going reverse direction... and 15, one of the world's great par threes no matter what the wind...

And 16 alone is fantastic, but good lord is this an awesome finishing 4 hole stretch.

TH

ps Bart - we overlapped - man that is more testimony to the bitch three shotter it must be into the wind.  And I am sticking with my take it just makes the hole greater.  But bummer you had no chance at the Bowl of Achievement... next time... 

[Kalen Braley]

16 into the wind would be just plain nasty.

I played it with no wind and still found plenty of trouble as the layup area proved troublesome to me.  Of course I'm not sneaky long like the Huckster and was nowhere near the bowl of achievment with my tee ball.

[Scott Szabo]

Combine it with 17 and 18, going reverse direction... and 15, one of the world's great par threes no matter what the wind...

And 16 alone is fantastic, but good lord is this an awesome finishing 4 hole stretch.

TH

I've played that four hole stretch in 2 under par as well as 7 over par.  The wind totally changes things.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen makes a good point.  Not that I am sneaky long - I am still the weakest of weaksticks when compared to truly long hitters - but well... it did take one hell of a perfectly hit, perfectly drawn drive getting the perfect bounce to get it down into the Bowl.  And of course, that's why it gets the name.  And Kalen, have respect - the name gets initial caps.

 

But my point is it's not very realistic to expect to get it down in there, for damn near all players, even with a helping wind.  However.... the temptation to TRY downwind is great... gaining 50 extra yards is something few can resist.  So it remains perfect to me!

And Scott, I'm wondering what wind would make that 4 hole stretch play anything but quite tough.  See, the downwind made 16 doable, but of course HOLDING that green downwind from distance was no easy shot (hence my 6, achieved when the 2nd went long).  Into the wind it's brutal for sure, but the point remains it's not EASY downwind.

15 is gonna be hard in any wind...

But the big turner for me are 17 and 18.  Man those were each very very tough into the wind, with 17 being damn near unreachable.  Turn each around and they are easier for sure... but I can't see either hole ever being all that easy.

So in the end, the only way I can see this stretch playing "easy" is in no wind at all.  And even then good shots will still be required.

What remains VERY cool to me is how DIFFERENT the stretch will play depending on the wind.  Man it is a very very fine finishing stretch of holes.

TH

[John Kirk]

I reached the Bowl of Achievement in one shot before; sometimes you're happy to be there in two.  From the BoA, it can be as little as a pitching wedge.

The only par 4 I have reached in one shot is 7, downwind with a driver over the left half of the bunker.  Had a 12 footer for eagle.  Dogged the putt and tapped in for birdie.

I appreciate all the fine things said about Ballyneal.  I think it's a great golf course.  Comparing Sand Hills to Ballyneal is tough; although they occupy the same niche in American golf (sand hills retreats), they are very different.

[Tom Huckaby]

I reached the Bowl of Achievement in one shot before; sometimes you're happy to be there in two.  From the BoA, it can be as little as a pitching wedge.

The only par 4 I have reached in one shot is 7, downwind with a driver over the left half of the bunker.  Had a 12 footer for eagle.  Dogged the putt and tapped in for birdie.

I appreciate all the fine things said about Ballyneal.  I think it's a great golf course.  Comparing Sand Hills to Ballyneal is tough; although they occupy the same niche in American golf (sand hills retreats), they are very different.

Great point there re the comparison, John - in the end it diminishes both.

Man I am loving this discussion though... I'm like a little kid here going over the latest video game with his buddies.  The more I think about Ballyneal and hear the experiences of others, the more I am finding to love... and I thought I had most of it covered the nights I was there!

TH

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom H and all -

thanks much for this discussion, I'm enjoying it and am impressed -- your  memory for golf holes and ability to describe them is excellent...

Anyway, as Sean A said earlier, please carry on, boys -- all bits of trivia and analysis are welcome

Peter 

[Tom Huckaby]

Peter:

Well.. I have to admit I cheat a little... I have a copy of the yardage guide-book for BN right on hand here!

But great courses are easy to remember, also.

 

[Jerry Kluger]

In comparing the greens at SH and BN, I would say that BN greens are more undulating and severe - I am not suggesting which greens are better, but they are different.  SH is generally viewed as the first of its kind and clearly the inspiration for many courses that followed - what if it had BN's greens - would it have been too much and been rejected as too extreme?

[Adam Clayman]

Jerry, I don't think those greens would work at SH. The Chop Hills allow for them @BN.  SH has longer bigger roll to their dunes which their greens fit perfectly.

I know for a fact that a few holes had their greens changed at SH after the first season. Specifically one of the most severe, the 2nd, which is still extremely extreme. But, in a good way.

My mention of how I played the 7th hole was not mean to invoke a constant comparison, or, the quality of the architecture. They are different animals within the same family order. (if thats an appropriate correlation?)

[Ed Oden]

Bart and I played together and had the same conditions on #16.  I may be wrong, but my sense is that this hole was not designed to play into the wind we encountered.  The hole narrows considerably in the "Bowl of Achievement", which is fine if that spot is the risk/reward for a great tee shot or as a tactical layup for a relatively short iron third to the green.  But I am not sure it works as well when it takes two near perfect shots to reach the pinched width area just to be left with a 175 yard uphill shot into the wind that plays more like 215.  I enjoy tackling tough holes and exacting shots and have no problem with wind adding to the difficulty.  But I would still like to see strategic options in play notwithstanding the difficulty or the conditions.  We played many holes at Ballyneal that were into a stiff wind.  #16 was the only one I felt gave me no real choices.  So while I can see that the hole would be an absolute blast to play under different conditions, I would not rate #16 among the best holes this truly outstanding course has to offer. 

Ed

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed:

Having played 16 in nothing but downwind or no wind, I have greater love for it.  But I can see it would be brutal into the wind.  I don't think, however, that diminishes its greatness... I just have to believe that when the wind is that direction, one moves up a set of tees... if it does take two great shots just to reach the BofA (my wife's employer, I love the acronym), then yes that is too severe.  But if it takes two great shots to get past it, well... you get a lot of run on that side, so it would be doable.  In any case I love the fact it plays SO different in the different winds.

I guess I look at it this way also:  if one played 17 into nothing but the severe wind we got 3 out of 4 rounds, it would be hard to have much love for that hole also as in that wind (the same one helping on 16) it is of course brutally long.  Man I hit a great drive and an absolute career 3wood to get 5 yards short, atop the hill on which sits the green.  So just on the surface of things, that's very very tough.  But I can also see that reverse the wind, and I am trying to wrap the drive around the bend, hug the right, etc.  And that would be very cool.

Same for 18... very tough into the wind, different story with.

And I love all of that.

TH