[Kalen Braley]

Kalen: It seems that everytime I play BN the wind is left to right on #4 and I wind up in the right part of the fairway or worse which means that the right bunker complex comes into play on the second shot as it is in the center of the fairway from my angle -  in other words, my lousy golf game is being used to cover my statement.

Not a problem Jerry, I think that clears it up pretty good.  I was either fortunate or not, depending on how you see it, to play it with zero wind, so it wasn't too tough to avoid it.  Even though I did actually end up right of that massive fairwasy bunker once when I hit an abysmal 2nd shot.. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Jerry - I'd say 4 BN is a damn fine golf hole.  That right fairway bunker dominates the thinking on the 2nd shot, and in a left to right wind heck yeah would it be tough.  The green is exceedingly cool also - we got a far right pin one day and in the right to left wind, well that was something...  the tee shot from on high launched down to the fairway is very very fun as well.  THis is one great hole, for sure.

But that being said....

4 PD plays so crazily different in the different winds - with such totally different thoughts and requirements - and has such drama with the cliffs on the right, with so many different possibly outcomes.... in the end it just wins the match play ever so slightly for me.

This is what I should have said before, but in trying to do 18 holes and get some work in, well... I just opted for the summary.

TH

[Ted Kramer]

Kalen, I do live in the land of such heathens, but I have kept my loyalty to the team of my childhood home.

 

And it is a tough call.  Heck, in the end you are likely right - the overall set of par threes at PD is pretty damn great.  I sure can't argue with preferring them overall.  I just more wonderered if any others thought of the set at BN as a STRENGTH of that course?  That was what was I said that got the quizzical looks.  I could well be off my rocker, wouldn't be the first time.  Whaddya think?

TH

I wish I could have these conversations with you guys over a few beers.
I think the par 3s at BN are better than those at PD.
I just don't have the energy to type out all the reasons why.
But I will say the following:
#15 BN is one of my favorite par 3s ever, love everything about it
Played #5 BN to a frontish middle flag, hitting the ball into the hill on the right and watching it feed down towards the hole was awsome. The hole seemed to ask for that approach, and the payoff for a well struck, somewhat risky, and creative shot was perfect.

 -Ted

[Tom Huckaby]

Ted:

The more I think about 15BN the more I love it... and that's definitely how it went the more I played it... man we played that into a 3/4 hurting wind one time and it was a driver for me!  Talk about a dramatic glorious shot... and that green... talk about a world of possible outcomes...

I too love everything about that golf hole.

But the one that REALLY got my blood stirring was 11.  I cursed Tom Doak and the golf gods all at once after getting into the left front - and then the right front - bunker... too severe was my cry...

Then I remember another severe hole that killed me - 11 Shinnecock Hills.

I swear that this must be Doak's homage to that great great golf hole.  Call it Shinnecock West.  Skyline green, killer bunkers, killer green... just drama to the max. 

My curses turned to gushing praise once I got out of my own little world.

TH

[Ed Oden]

One comment - perhaps my contribution to the BN lore... do you happen to have a picture of 16?  We played that twice in a pretty nice helping wind, such that even from a backish tee, one could hit a hard draw and get his ball into what I named "the Bowl of Achievement" - down below the large fairway bunker - leaving 170 or so into the green.  I'd love to see a pic of that... and hear comments about how great my drive was... or not....     

Tom, unfortunately I don't have a picture from the 16th tee.  But here is one of the approach...

...and one looking back from behind the green.


FYI, we had the opposite wind, directly into our face.  It made this hole a brute since you were just trying to reach the "Bowl of Achievement" in two for a long third shot to the green.

Ed

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed - you are now my own personal hero.  Many thanks!

And oh my yes would this hole be so much different - and so much harder - in a headwind.  Man I shudder to think.  I played it down wind three times and calm one other.  Each time the thought was more trying to get to the green in two... having to deal with the Bowl of Madness (which is what it would be into a headwind) on a 2nd or 3rd shot would be brutal.

In any case, for any wondering, said bowl is just below the saddle one can see in Ed's looking back picture.  The fairway goes out to a shelf, and then cascades down into this bowl.  It is very unique and very cool.

TH

[Wyatt Halliday]

Jim/Tom,

It has been 84 days since I left Ballyneal.

42 mornings I have rolled out of bed convinced that Pacific is the better course, and the other 42 Ballyneal was the clear winner. As for today it's easy--Bally....um, I mean Pacif....CRAP! Ask me again tomorrow.

[Norbert P]

Ballyneal has Adam C.  Pacific Dunes does not. Thus, Ballyneal edges out PD. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim/Tom,

It has been 84 days since I left Ballyneal.

42 mornings I have rolled out of bed convinced that Pacific is the better course, and the other 42 Ballyneal was the clear winner. As for today it's easy--Bally....um, I mean Pacif....CRAP! Ask me again tomorrow.

Love it!

That is pretty darn perfect.

[Wyatt Halliday]

It's even tougher when you try and break down individual holes against each other. For instance (and in no order):

The great short Par 3
#3 Ballyneal
#11 Pacific

The great short Par 4
#7 Ballyneal
#16 Pacific

The great medium Par 4
#12 Ballyneal
#2 Pacific

The "short" Par 5
#8 Ballyneal
#3 Pacific

The merits of each can be argued.

[Tom Huckaby]

Wyatt - those are all tough calls.

But wouldn't you sub 6 for 16 at Pacific?  I would in terms of the great short par 4.  And as cool as 7 BN is - and wow it is cool - 6 PD wins that one (for me anyway).

Interesting also, I was thinking about a great long par 3 comparison... but PD doesn't really have one.... I guess 17 can be considered long, but not in the brutish way that 15 BN is.... so BN wins that by default....

[Wyatt Halliday]

Tom,

Agreed on six at Pacific, which is another reason why the comparison is so difficult. There are many holes on both sides that qualify regardless of category.

However, it is much more difficult to do side-by-sides on the long par four's at Ballyneal. There really isn't anything at Pacific to compare them to. That is not a knock on Pacific, it's just the facts.

Both courses are rare in that the sum of the parts is equal to the whole. <------I hope that makes sense.

[Tom Huckaby]

I was thinking the same thing re long par fours... there really aren't any on the surface of things at PD, whereas there sure are at BN.  But then I thought about it more, and this all turns on wind.  For example, last weekend 17-18 at BN were each dead into the wind and thus killers... but turn that around and they surely are not.  Same goes for 4 and 13 at PD, or a few others... make any into the wind and they sure as hell are long!

So I punted on the issue.

Re the last part, I think BN is MORE than the sum of its parts... I'm not sure why, but that really did strike me.

PD probably is also.

Oh what the hell.... back and forth I go also.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

It really does all turn on the wind so to speak.

#4 at PD can play brutishly long into the winter wind. 
#10 at PD plays long into the summer wind.

And #8 at BN isn't exactly short into a southern wind,
And #17 at BN doesn't play near as bad with a wind behind.
And #7 at BN can be very driveable with same wind.

Thats sort of the beauty of both of these courses, you can get two entirely different animals where brutes become friends and visa versa.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Bare with me Tom, I'm still trying to deconstruct my own thought process here.

I guess I'm referring to the times where I have played a course, thought it was really good, but could easily point to something that was out of place. A mere 48 hours of perusing this sight will show evidence of a potentially great course brought back down to earth because of a lackluster hole or two.

When splitting hairs between these courses, I don't think there is a certain hole you can point to and say it lowers the overall opinion.

In both cases, the quality of the routing dictates this rule imho.

WH

[Matthew Schulte]

The problem with match play comparisons is that they seldom compare like holes or even holes with the same par.  Obviously a true match play between these two courses is difficult as Pacific has one more par 5 and one more par 3.  However, if you just wanted to compare individual holes onto themselves and not consider factors like routing and pacing (both of which are obviously incredibly important) I believe you might compare the following 16 holes:

Pacific #1  vs.  Ballyneal #1  (Both short par 4s)
Pacific #2  vs.  Ballyneal #14  (Both centerline hazard short par 4s)
Pacific #3  vs.  Ballyneal #8  (Both reachable par 5s)
Pacific #4  vs.  Ballyneal #10  (Both long par 4s with trouble right)
Pacific #5  vs.  Ballyneal #5  
Pacific #6  vs.  Ballyneal #7  (Both great short par 4s)
Pacific #7  vs.  Ballyneal #6  (Long par 4s requiring two accurate shots)
Pacific #8  vs.  Ballyneal #2  (Elevated tee shots both longish par 4s with great greens)
Pacific #9  vs.  Ballyneal #18  (Pacific to lower green both dogleg left par 4s)
Pacific #10 vs.  Ballyneal #11  (Long par 3s from the back tees on both holes)
Pacific #11 vs.  Ballyneal #3  (Two world class short par 3s)
Pacific #12  SKIP this par 5  (Pacific has one more par 5 than Ballyneal)
Pacific #13 vs.  Ballyneal #13  (Two big par 4s with big features)
Pacific #14  SKIP this par 3  (Pacific has one more par 3 than Ballyneal)
Pacific #15 vs.  Ballyneal #4  (Par 5s to two great elevated greens)
Pacific #16 vs.  Ballyneal #12  (Two great "driveable" par 4s depending on wind and tee box)
Pacific #17 vs.  Ballyneal #15 
Pacific #18 vs.  Ballyneal #16  (Blind second shot par 5s)

Unfortunately I could not think of comparable holes for Ballyneal's 9th and 17th holes.  Arguments could certainly be made for them to replace other par 4s listed above.  I just think this sort of comparison makes the match play conversation more interesting.

[John Kavanaugh]

Obviously a true match play is difficult as Pacific has one more par 5 and one more par 3.  If you wanted to do an apples to apples match play I believe you might compare the following 16 holes:

Pacific #1  vs.  Ballyneal #1  (Both short par 4s)
Pacific #2  vs.  Ballyneal #14  (Both centerline hazard short par 4s)
Pacific #3  vs.  Ballyneal #8  (Both reachable par 5s)
Pacific #4  vs.  Ballyneal #10  (Both long par 4s with trouble right)
Pacific #5  vs.  Ballyneal #5  
Pacific #6  vs.  Ballyneal #7  (Both great short par 4s)
Pacific #7  vs.  Ballyneal #6  (Long par 4s requiring two accurate shots)
Pacific #8  vs.  Ballyneal #2  (Elevated tee shots both longish par 4s with great greens)
Pacific #9  vs.  Ballyneal #18  (Pacific to lower green both dogleg left par 4s)
Pacific #10 vs.  Ballyneal #11  (Long par 3s from the back tees on both holes)
Pacific #11 vs.  Ballyneal #3  (Two world class short par 3s)
Pacific #12  SKIP this par 5  (Ballyneal has 3 not 4 par 5s)
Pacific #13 vs.  Ballyneal #13  (Two big par 4s with big features)
Pacific #14  SKIP this par 3  (Pacific has one more par 3 than Ballyneal)
Pacific #15 vs.  Ballyneal #4  (Par 5s to two great elevated greens)
Pacific #16 vs.  Ballyneal #12  (Two great "driveable" par 4s depending on wind and tee box)
Pacific #17 vs.  Ballyneal #15  
Pacific #18 vs.  Ballyneal #16  (Blind second shot par 5s)

Unfortunately I could not think of comparable holes for Ballyneal's 9th and 17th holes.  Arguments could certainly be made for them to replace other par 4s listed above.  I just think this sort of comparison makes the match play conversation more interesting.

Matthew,

That is a genius comparison that should be posted in the Ballyneal proshop.  I don't know how you did it but Ballyneal wins every hole in this match.  Until I read your post I would have thought 10 and 8 victory for Ballyneal was outside the scope of reality.

[Tim Pitner]

How about Pacific Dunes #7 as a long(ish) par 4?  Perhaps not as long as Ballyneal #2 or #17, but still a good, stout par 4. 

As to the ultimate issue, how about I play PD and BN 20 times, each, and then I'll get back to you?

I find comparing the two very difficult.  They have a similar look to them--they look like Tom Doak courses.  After that, things diverge greatly.  PD really has the feel of a GB&I links course, but situated on the beautiful Oregon coast.  BN plays like a links, but it's dry and in Colorado.  Although PD has some heroic holes, it's more intimate than the sprawling BN (compare the expansive view from PD #3 to the one from BN #4).  You may say this stuff is neither here nor there, but I would counter that playing a golf course is more about the touch and feel of the place than the map of the holes. 

When it comes to the holes, neither course has a weak one.  I might like PD #1 and BN #9 the least, although they too have features to commend them.  Ballyneal has wilder greens and choppier terrain (hey, it's the chop hills), but lacks an ocean.  Personally, I like the vegetation and visual diversity (seaside vs inland) of PD.  While each hole is unique at BN, there is a certain sameness to the look of the holes at Ballyneal, which is both awe-inspiring and somewhat less satisfying to me than PD.   

Generally speaking, I think the best holes at PD are a little better than the best ones at BN, but BN probably has fewer marginally weaker holes.  I rate PD #11 over any par 3 at BN (#5 is my favorite); PD #6 over BN #7; and PD #3 over BN #4 or #8 (not by wide margins, mind you).  Because I look more to the whole than the sum of the parts, I like PD better, but could totally understand an argument that BN is the superior course.  It's certainly more difficult.  To think that some magazine rated BN as something like the 60th best course in the U.S. is just unfathomable.  It's clearly much greater than that. 

[Adam Clayman]

Can't make the case since I'm deficient in my travels.
 But one thing no one has mentioned that I find obvious from the pictures is the gorse.

At BN one will rarely lose a ball, spend much time if any looking for one, and, always have a chance for recovery.

For those familiar with the mega resort, is that the case at PD?

[Kalen Braley]

Can't make the case since I'm deficient in my travels.
 But one thing no one has mentioned that I find obvious from the pictures is the gorse.

At BN one will rarely lose a ball, spend much time if any looking for one, and, always have a chance for recovery.

For those familiar with the mega resort, is that the case at PD?

That would be true,

Plenty of lost ball opportunties on several holes.

[Tom_Doak]

In addition to the gorse, the hazards at Pacific Dunes are generally more severe than at Ballyneal ... the bunkers are nastier and you CAN go over the edge of the cliff on three of the 18 holes.  Ballyneal's sage-and-sand-and-yucca roughs are not easy but I think they're more predictable than the variety of stuff at Pacific.

I have no real opinion on whether that makes one course better than the other, it's just one of the differences.

[Adam Clayman]

Certainly its a function of enjoyment for all levels of players. Looking for balls repeatedly can diminish the enjoyment for everyone including the player who never misses the fairway. Also, what does it say to the evolution of team Doak and the years inbetween those designs? It would be nice to hear insights from others who might not be the typical retail golfer. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Adam,

Gorse is a cool hazard because we hear about it every year during the Open.  I think it would be a huge marketing mistake to eliminate it completely from the resort, if that option even existed.

The paradox here is that normally the private course is more penal when it comes to loss of ball than the public.  I, as I have said many times, find Ballyneal to be a far superior design but do believe that would be different if the roles of private and public were reversed. 

[John Kirk]

Based on Matt Schulte's comparison technique, I see it as a very close call, either even or Pacific Dunes by 1 up.  I see Ballyneal 9 and 17 as being better than Pacific Dunes 12 and 14, so overall it's about a tossup.

In general, hole by hole analysis doesn't quite do it for me.

I like BN #9 better than most here.  It's probably because I have lots of success there.  My lifetime scoring average makes it the easiest par 4 on the course for me.  I attribute that to the driving strategy of teeing a driver low and swinging easy.  Teeing the ball low encourages a straight shot.  Where people get into trouble on 9 is by spraying the ball into the native, trying to hit a second driving club hard.

[Sean_A]

This has been an interesting discussion and when I see holes like the one below it really gets my attention.


I like the matchplay setup only because its fun and can lead to wonderful insights.  One of the problems I have with it is the holes are seen as separate entities.  The rhythm and flow of the course gets taken out of the picture and for me this is a very important aspect of my enjoyment.

Carry on boys.

Ciao

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