Ballyneal vs Pacific Dunes

[Tim Pitner]

I think you have to be careful when naming features on a golf course--the names tend to sound silly.  It doesn't have the ring of "the Valley of Sin," for example.  Hey, there's no harm in trying, I guess. 

[Tom Huckaby]

I think you have to be careful when naming features on a golf course--the names tend to sound silly.  It doesn't have the ring of "the Valley of Sin," for example.  Hey, there's no harm in trying, I guess. 

Well as I say Tim, it's really not intended to stick, and was mainly used just for fun in here.    It's SUPPOSED to be silly.

But since I found Ballyneal to feature as much good ole down to earth fun as The Old Course has tradition and the ghosts of the ages, I thought it fit.

But again what the hell do I know, I was just a humble visitor playing via a charity to which a lot of money was given by my host.

TH

[Tim Pitner]

Tom,

I hadn't really read the posts that thoroughly so I missed Adam's comment about the names being disrespectful and I wasn't trying to pile on.  I just saw people picking up on the use of the name and thought I'd cast a dissenting vote--nothing personal. 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I just rerurned from playing the triumphate of Ballyneal, Duismal River and Sand Hills...thread with pictures to follow.
I understand Pacific Dunes one up...but to me they are all square with Ballyneal winning on extra holes.
The extra holes victory being due to the shear enthusiasm for golf being fun that Rupert has...I have never played a course that excudes fun like Ballyneal..hence the narrowest of victories!

[Jim Colton]

Like Michael, I too just got back from Ballyneal and had a blast.  Played 27-54-36 Fri-Sun.  I gained a further appreciation for some of the holes beyond my already high initial impressions from back in June, especially for the back nine and some of the other long par 4's.

In my opinion, there aren't any golf courses materially better than Ballyneal.  There may be a handful as good or slightly better based on personal opinion, but it's all just splitting hairs at this point.

[Tom Huckaby]

In my opinion, there aren't any golf courses materially better than Ballyneal.  There may be a handful as good or slightly better based on personal opinion, but it's all just splitting hairs at this point.

Jim - well said.  That's likely the case for all of the courses that one would consider in his Top 30 or so in the world.  The differences just aren't that large, and likely will come down to personal preference.  And Ballyneal would seem to belong in most anyone's Top 30.  It is in mine.

Question:  did you get the wind such that 16 was down, 17 and 18 against?  That would sure give one appreciation of long par fours... We got that wind 3 out of 4 rounds I played and YOWZA!  It made 16 play super fun and 17 and 18 super-tough (just to use these three examples).  I loved it.  But man it had me questioning the sanity of those who have said Ballyneal is "too easy."  And some have said that.  I wanted to say "too easy for whom?"

 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Huck..what is this viscious story I hear about you hitting into the gap on number eight...were you playing the ladies tees?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

we played with that same wind...quite a challenge.
one day each way in fact...perfect able to see two different courses.
How about number 13 from that back tee awesome...heck I could go on and on..every hole is brilliant.

Time to join??

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck..what is this viscious story I hear about you hitting into the gap on number eight...were you playing the ladies tees?

Michael - see, there's this thing called wind.... it's rather ego-flattering when behind.

 

If I had $100K lying around I'd join tomorrow. 

TH

[Jim Colton]

In my opinion, there aren't any golf courses materially better than Ballyneal.  There may be a handful as good or slightly better based on personal opinion, but it's all just splitting hairs at this point.

Jim - well said.  That's likely the case for all of the courses that one would consider in his Top 30 or so in the world.  The differences just aren't that large, and likely will come down to personal preference.  And Ballyneal would seem to belong in most anyone's Top 30.  It is in mine.

Question:  did you get the wind such that 16 was down, 17 and 18 against?  That would sure give one appreciation of long par fours... We got that wind 3 out of 4 rounds I played and YOWZA!  It made 16 play super fun and 17 and 18 super-tough (just to use these three examples).  I loved it.  But man it had me questioning the sanity of those who have said Ballyneal is "too easy."  And some have said that.  I wanted to say "too easy for whom?"

 

I have mad respect for anybody's game if they find Ballyneal to be 'too easy'.  I've now played 10 rounds out there and my best score is 80.  Granted I haven't played much this year, but normally I break 80 60-70% of the time here in Chicago.

The course isn't beat you over the head difficult, there's a good ebb and flow of long par 4's and shorter ones where you might be able to get a stroke back.  Even on the shorter ones, get off line and you're staring double bogey or worse in the face.  In some respects, the vegetation can be worse than a hazard simply due to the randomness of it.  Here at home, you hit in the hazard off the tee, take a drop and put it on the green and probably make bogey.  Get in the junk at Ballyneal and who knows what can happen.  Get stuck in a yucca plant and you're lucky to advance it 10 yards.  Maybe you have a relatively clean lie and it dares you to bite off more than you can chew.  Fail to execute and you're faced with the same shot from a different spot.  Play it safe and maybe you actually catch it cleanly and you're in the junk on the other side of the fairway.

I realize the fairways are wide, but it takes some consistently solid ball striking to go a whole round and avoid disaster, especially when the wind is up.  Plus with the firm and sloping greens, a chip to within 5-6 feet is probably a good effort.  If you can make non-straight 5-6 footers consistently, you deserve to score well.

Tom, to answer your question about the wind, we played in a full assortment of different wind conditions (adding to the fun factor), but nothing reaching the 40+ mph that you faced.  16-18 played differently from round to round.  In fact, we made the turn with a swift tailwind on 10 and I said to my partner, 'Man, 17 & 18 are going to be beasts.'  By the time we got there 90 minutes later, the wind had shifted and they were downwind.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim - great stuff and very well said.  As for my wonderful time there, we only got 40mph for short bursts.  Heck it may have NEVER gotten that much - I am not a good measurer of such.  I just do know that 17 and 18 did play beastly hard at least twice.  And to me that was cool!

TH

[Ted Kramer]

we played with that same wind...quite a challenge.
one day each way in fact...perfect able to see two different courses.
How about number 13 from that back tee awesome...heck I could go on and on..every hole is brilliant.

Time to join??

13 from the back tees was a lot of fun.
I also have to say that #6 from the back is an AWSOME hole.
I highly recommend a play from back there, it is a great blind drive, maybe my favorite par 4 on the course from back there.

-Ted

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I forgot about that, I agree..and what a great green/bunker/tee complex that teeing area is part of.
Truly a super hole....but again I feel that way about all 18, not a weak one amongst them.

[Tom Huckaby]

I think 13 shows genius, and I am just coming to understand it after contemplating it long and hard.

From the normal up tees - right next to 12 green - it's a very cool par 4, where at least for me, the central bunker dominates everything.  I can get over or around it, but only if I hit it my best.  It must be avoided.  The fairway is huge, but the temptation is to go left, to shorten the hole.  Then you realize the enormous turbo-boost you can get if you get over or around the center bunker - getting to maybe where you have a wedge in - and the temptation is greater and greater.  You see the angle is gonna be better from the left, and the temptation becomes too much to resist.  Then you dump one into that center bunker - or worse, miss left into the native - and wonder why the hell you didn't just play safe to the right.

Then from the back tee... for me it's a par 5.  510 is not something I can expect to do in two shots.  And in fact, getting the second shot over the second set of bunkers (100 yards or so short of the green) tends to dominate things.  So whereas the tee-shot is semi-heroic from back there (hitting over 12 green, bashing it as hard as one can to get out to the fairway), it's not nearly as big of a deal as the 2nd shot.... which is very very strategic and potentially heroic.

Put all this together and you have one incredibly "flexible" golf hole.  As Adam once said, one's playing will depend on nature, but mother and human (a great line, btw).  Very, very cool.

6 from the back tees is one damn fun tee shot also.

TH

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I just think it is wonderful athat we can talk about these two great courses and put them so close together in "ratings"
A total credit to Mr Doak...we are so lucky to be able to play on such great grounds that 100 years from now will be as revered as St Andrews ans Augusta...and that is not designed to be a nose up the bum comment!
Just stating what I think.

I am still gushing with excitement from my trip so I apologise if some of my comments more closely resemble those remarks made after a "lucky" night.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Okay bragging time....#13 from the full 510....driver, 2iron hybrid, single putt...yes a nice"eagle" three...much rejoicing and merryment..even my accompanying girlfriens appreciated that one.

But truly a great hole from either tee, either as a par 4 or five.
As Rupert said that is one of the wonders of Ballyneal, par changes with the wind and the tee selections...man it is a fun place!

[Tom Huckaby]

Michael - it's totally fine and understood - I have been doing the same obviously.  Add these to the gushing by shivas particularly about Rock Creek Cattle Company and it's clear Tom Doak is really onto something, and it's tough not to appear like a butt-boy after playing his great courses.

 

Combine this with the great work being done by several others, and it's also hard to believe this era won't be seen as another "golden age" someday... But, who knows what the future will hold.

TH

ps - that is one damn fine "eagle"!

[Carl Nichols]

If I had $100K lying around I'd join tomorrow. 

TH

Ballyneal sounds incredible, but if I were in the market for an out-of-town membership, I'd be hard pressed to join somewhere you can't play in the winter (since I also can't play in the winter in DC).  So a question for the group -- are there any relatively new clubs that are close to Ballyneal's league where you can play in the winter.....especially if you don't include the West Coast?

[Bart Bradley]

The Dormie Club might be  .

Bart

[Adam Clayman]

Ballyneal sounds incredible, but if I were in the market for an out-of-town membership, I'd be hard pressed to join somewhere you can't play in the winter (since I also can't play in the winter in DC).  So a question for the group -- are there any relatively new clubs that are close to Ballyneal's league where you can play in the winter.....especially if you don't include the West Coast?

The golf course is open in the winter. Keep your eye on the weather this winter, if you don't think there will plenty of golfable days.

[Bart Bradley]

Ballyneal sounds incredible, but if I were in the market for an out-of-town membership, I'd be hard pressed to join somewhere you can't play in the winter (since I also can't play in the winter in DC).  So a question for the group -- are there any relatively new clubs that are close to Ballyneal's league where you can play in the winter.....especially if you don't include the West Coast?

The golf course is open in the winter. Keep your eye on the weather this winter, if you don't think there will plenty of golfable days.

Adam:

With all due respect, can National Members really predict enough good weather to make plans on being at Ballyneal...I agree that many days might be golfable and that if you live close you could just head out to Ballyneal if the forcast looked good.  But for National members, this is certainly more problematic.

Bart

[Sean Leary]

Adam,

Is it officially open or just playable? Is it maintained in winter?

[Carl Nichols]

Adam:
Fair enough; there will probably be a bunch of golfable days in DC this winter as well.  But all other things equal (and I realize they may not be, hence my question), I'd prefer to have warmer weather if I'm jumping on a plane in the winter to go play a course to which I belong.    

[Adam Clayman]

Well then there is likely nothing in that league. There's nothing like BN anywhere, of that I'm becoming certain. Perhaps TSNorth or, the new C&C course @ Sugarloaf Mtn. could come close and satisfy your temperature range? But I have yet to visit Sugarloaf. Perhaps this winter.

However, with dormant turf and a nice breeze, I doubt any American experience will come close to winter golf in Holyoke. Maybe The Rawls course in Lubbock, but that's not exactly Miami Beach weather, either.


 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I just had a thought that I dont think has been mentioned..that of being able to play at YOUR pace...unhurried by anybody
The luxury of being able to spend 20 minutes messing around at a green site, playing out of all the bunkers, putting from all angles...the abilityto be able to play 2 or 3 balls.
Can you do that at Pacific Dunes on a regular basis, probably not...just a thought but to me that is worthy of consideration for the entire golf experience.
That to me emboddied what Ballyneal is all about.
A fun golf experience.