[Jim Colton]

There was an interesting thread on this topic up over the weekend, but it mysteriously disappered, I'm guessing because it quickly escalated downward and out of control.  I wonder if there is a way where we can discuss and compare these two great courses along some set criteria (shot values,  strategy, aesthetics, greens, difficulty, quality of par 3's/4's/5's, plus the typical 'if you had to pick one to play'-type questions) without it getting ugly.

I'm going to be at Ballyneal this weekend (Sept 26-28) with Jim Tang...seems like there's always at least a couple GCA guys out there at any given time, so if you're going to be there, stop by and say 'Hey'.

[Tom Huckaby]

Bummer I missed that topic - I just played Ballyneal last week.  Odd to me too that it got so bad as to be pulled... what the hell could be the huge argument?

So let's try again, I guess.

My take is this:

Ballyneal is a Doak 9.
Pacific Dunes is a Doak 10.

Any comparision between the two ought to just focus on the positives of each... and to me, there will just be a tiny bit more at Pacific Dunes.... with absolutely no disrepect to Ballyneal, which is incredible....

So how can this get ugly?

TH

[Kalen Braley]

How about a Ran matchplay hole special.  Huck you going to kick this off?

I really love both courses myself and would put PD at 9.5, BN a 9.

[Tom Huckaby]

I think the Ran matchplay thing doesn't really say all that much, as it so turns on luck - that is where the holes fall....

That being said, it is sometimes fun.  Here's my take off the top of my head

1 - BN 1up - PD's is cool and odd and I like it, but BN's is a just plain great golf hole - from back tees particularly.
2.  PD wins, even.  A just plain fantastic hole at PD.
3 - talk about apples and oranges... very cool short par 3 v. very cool short par 5... I just can't pick a winner.  still even.
4 - hard to beat holes along ocean cliffs.  PD 1up
5 - interesting somewhat similar par threes... not much to choose between them.. halve, PD still 1up
6 - PD one of the world's greatest short par 4s.  2up
7 - VERY tough call... but BN wins, having one of the world's coolest greens.  1up
8 - halve 1up
9 - PD's variety wins out - 2up
10 - apples and oranges again... no way to choose - 2up
11 - two great par threes, but the severity of the bunkers at BN had me thinking Shinnecock.. as cool as PD is there by the ocean, I gotta go with BN.  1up
12 - excellent unsung par 5 (PD) v. very cool shortish par 4 with a crazy crazy green... green wins it for BN.  Even.
13 - both great holes... incredible dune and presence near ocean just slightly wins it for PD.  1up
14 - apples and oranges again... cool shortish par 4 v. unsung very cool par 3... halve... 1up
15 - yet another apples and oranges... GREAT strong par 3 to punchbowlish green v. unsung, unappreciated cool par 5... man I can't pick.. but gave one close one to PD, so give this one to BN.  Even.
16 - oh wow... incredible par 5 with choices galore (BN) v. incredible par 4 with choices galore (PD)... gotta call this a half although it's another apples and oranges.  Even.
17 - here we go again... redanish par 3 (PD) v. very very strong par 4 (BN)... half.. even.
18 - strong  par 4 v. strong but just a little more special par 5... PD wins 1up

As you see there are quite a few tough calls, and it's damn close.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

I have PD winning at about the same margin.

1) PD - 1 Up - Opening hole at PD is an epic start that really sets the tone.
2) PD - 2 up - This hole at PD is one of my faves.
3) AS  - 2 Up - Great par 5, and reallly unique short little par 3.
4) PD -  3 up - While 4 at PD isn't one of my faves, I think its more interesting than 4 at BN.
5) PD - 4 up - Both great par 3's but PD is just a unique green site
6) PD - 5 up - A wicked little 4 that rocks.
7) BN - 4 up - As good as PD 7 is, BN 7 is a rock star with a one-of-a-kind green complex.
BN - 3 up - 8 is my favorite par 5 at either course.
9) AS - 3 up - Both really good interesting holes with good greens.
10) BN - 2 up - BN 10 is great par 4 with options and strategy a plenty.
11) PD - 3 up - All world par 3 at PD, nuff said.
12) BN - 2 up - Great short 4 at BN, only slightly behind #7
13) BN - 1 up - As much as PD 13 is great and eye-candy galore, I think BN 13 is better.
14) PD - 2 up - This may be my favorite par 3 of em all, a short little wedge hole with trouble a-plenty.
15) BN - 1 up - A really good par 3 against a soild par par 5.  Edge to BN, just barely.
16) AS - 1 up - Both interesting holes, both very challenging on thier 2nd shot, can make small and big numbers on both.
17) AS - 1 up - BN 17 is a beast, and PD 17 can be too in prevailing wind.
18) PD - 2 up - Its not everyones cup of tea, but I really love PD's finisher. 

So there it is PD wins 2 up.

[Jim Franklin]

Huck -

I am glad you emjoyed BN. I knew you would, but am very glad you were able to experience it first hand. I tend to agree with your analysis between PD and BN as well.

[Brad Swanson]

Just curious Tom, is your legal residence in CA or NE?

Brad

[Sean Leary]

I think the Ran matchplay thing doesn't really say all that much, as it so turns on luck - that is where the holes fall....

That being said, it is sometimes fun.  Here's my take off the top of my head

1 - BN 1up - PD's is cool and odd and I like it, but BN's is a just plain great golf hole - from back tees particularly.
2.  PD wins, even.  A just plain fantastic hole at PD.
3 - talk about apples and oranges... very cool short par 3 v. very cool short par 5... I just can't pick a winner.  still even.
4 - hard to beat holes along ocean cliffs.  PD 1up
5 - interesting somewhat similar par threes... not much to choose between them.. halve, PD still 1up
6 - PD one of the world's greatest short par 4s.  2up
7 - VERY tough call... but BN wins, having one of the world's coolest greens.  1up
8 - halve 1up
9 - PD's variety wins out - 2up
10 - apples and oranges again... no way to choose - 2up
11 - two great par threes, but the severity of the bunkers at BN had me thinking Shinnecock.. as cool as PD is there by the ocean, I gotta go with BN.  1up
12 - excellent unsung par 5 (PD) v. very cool shortish par 4 with a crazy crazy green... green wins it for BN.  Even.
13 - both great holes... incredible dune and presence near ocean just slightly wins it for PD.  1up
14 - apples and oranges again... cool shortish par 4 v. unsung very cool par 3... halve... 1up
15 - yet another apples and oranges... GREAT strong par 3 to punchbowlish green v. unsung, unappreciated cool par 5... man I can't pick.. but gave one close one to PD, so give this one to BN.  Even.
16 - oh wow... incredible par 5 with choices galore (BN) v. incredible par 4 with choices galore (PD)... gotta call this a half although it's another apples and oranges.  Even.
17 - here we go again... redanish par 3 (PD) v. very very strong par 4 (BN)... half.. even.
18 - strong  par 4 v. strong but just a little more special par 5... PD wins 1up

As you see there are quite a few tough calls, and it's damn close.

TH

I have it almost exactly as you do, except that I like 8 at Ballyneal better than PD, I like 11 at PD better than Ballyneal.

So for me its all square overall.

[Tom Huckaby]

Brad - methinks I'd like to have both.

Sean - lots of tough calls there for sure - I can live with your changes without a doubt.

Jim - I was a lucky boy last week.  But as you know, payment is large.  I am more Mr. Mom than ever for the forseeable future.  But oh yes is it worth it....

TH

[Tim Bert]

There were already several comments this weekend. It is a shame folks can't keep these threads from becoming personal. When it happens in threads that are on topic we all lose. I wish the thread could have been salvaged by just deleting the attacks.

[Jerry Kluger]

Huck: I haven't played PD but here's the problem with match play: Your comment about #4 at PD is simply that because it's on the cliffs overlooking the ocean there's no need to consider #4 at BN. #4 at BN is a great par 5, not good - it's great. Wind is blowing and you have to get it in the fairway, great centerline features, and then you face one of the best greens on the course - elevated, false front, etc.  You also blow off #9 at BN which if I remember correctly, was the subject of about a 4 page thread on its own. 

What I would like to see is an architectural comparison of the courses - par 3s versus par 3s, par 5s versus par 5s, short par 4s and long par 4s.

Certainly the ocean vistas give some advantage to PD, but keep it to hole design, which though would include playing conditions because of location.

[Jim Tang]

Jimmy Colton -

I am counting down the hours until the experience that is Ballyneal.

Having played 5 rounds at Pac Dunes on two different trips and ranking it # 1 on my personal list, I'll be very interested to see how Ballyneal stacks up.

I didn't see the other thread on this topic, but it sounds like the thread disolved into personal attacks and silly arguments.  There is more than one or two tremendous golf courses on the planet, right?  And people do get to have their opinion, right?

Anyway, I fully expect Ballyneal to be a world class experience.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jerry:

I fully agree - the match play thing shows little, as I said.  But Kalen asked, so what the hell.  And give me a break, please... I did not BLOW OFF any hole... I just didn't attempt to do in-depth analysis - as I said this was just off the top of my head.

I can't do your other request:  it's just beyond me to keep any assessment of a golf course to hole design.  I play the holes - I don't design them.  But maybe Doak will critique his own work in this manner!

TH

ps Jim T - you are gonna love it.  Trust me.

[Brad Swanson]

There were already several comments this weekend. It is a shame folks can't keep these threads from becoming personal. When it happens in threads that are on topic we all lose. I wish the thread could have been salvaged by just deleting the attacks.

I agree,Tim, let's save the petty attacks for the NLCS when my Cubs are going to kick the snot out of your Phillies  .

Brad

[Kalen Braley]

Jerry,

There is much more to #4 at PD than a perched cliff with a world-class view.

I'm curious what centerline feature exists at 4 BN though?  There is a bunker on the right side of the fairway and the green complex.  Whats it in the center?  I thought this hole was very good, but not great.

[Tom Huckaby]

There were already several comments this weekend. It is a shame folks can't keep these threads from becoming personal. When it happens in threads that are on topic we all lose. I wish the thread could have been salvaged by just deleting the attacks.

I agree,Tim, let's save the petty attacks for the NLCS when my Cubs are going to kick the snot out of your Phillies  .

Brad

And then we'll really get into it when whichever of you survives this gets their butts kicked in the next round by my Dodgers.

That is if we freakin' hang on and get to the damn playoffs at all... HELP.....

 

[Jim Colton]

Tom,

 Thanks for your analysis.  This is exactly the type of discussion I was looking for, and I'm thrilled to see it not dissolve (yet).  I've played both courses and have a very tough time picking between the two.

  I agree the 4th hole at PD is hard to beat, but the 4th at BN is a great hole and very scenic even without the giant water hazard.  Could be considered a halve.

  Jim

ps. as a lifelong (gulp) Pittsburgh Pirates fan living in Chicago, I refuse to have my thread contain any mentions of the Cubs being in the playoffs.  I'm trying to pretend it ain't happening.

[Tim Bert]

You guys have missed the mark here. The Phils will likely be dismantling the Dodgers in the first round. After the Mets pull something out of their rearend to beat the Cubs, the Phils will go about business as usual of beating their division rovals in the NLCS.

[Tom Huckaby]

Well Jim, Jerry's right - we can get a LOT more in depth on this, and the match play thing is just a convenient shortcut.  But it is a start!

I think in the playing of the two courses, man it is always going to be very very close.  These are two world-class golf courses without a doubt.  Both are more fun that golf really has any right to be.

SO... let's try this:  overall fun and quality of par threes.

I think in this respect BN is overlooked.  That is, when I mentioned I loved the par threes there, I got quizzical looks and responses... the reaction being most talk about the par fours, particularly the shorter ones.  But as I went over the BN par threes in my mind at the end of each day, well.... I just found such incredible variety... with each playing so different from different tees and in different winds... from a touchy little crosswind shot on 3, to a medium but can play long and tough 5, to 11 which is a touchy iron from shorter tees but absolute beast from longer, to 15 which is a beast pretty much no matter what... well... they are all so different and so strong individually to, I just loved them.

Of course PD holds up VERY well here as well.  Man 10 and 11 particularly are each very cool, as are all the rest.  It's a very tough call.  But what do others think of the par threes as a set at BN?  It really struck me that these are very, very great.

TH

ps to Tim P - OK so we destroy the Phils early.  I can live with that. 

[Kalen Braley]

I think we're missing the real issue here.

Tom isn't a Dodger Fan, I could of swore I saw a SF Giants Driver cover during the last KP!! 

On to the real stuff.

I think I still take the par 3's at PD.  For one, you get more of em, as well as a mix and mash of different lengths and wind direction.  #5, you can play so many different ways as well as 17.  And on 14 with a downwind you have to be damn precise with a simple wedge to just avoid a bogey.

BN's are great too, but give the edge to PD.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen, I do live in the land of such heathens, but I have kept my loyalty to the team of my childhood home.

 

And it is a tough call.  Heck, in the end you are likely right - the overall set of par threes at PD is pretty damn great.  I sure can't argue with preferring them overall.  I just more wonderered if any others thought of the set at BN as a STRENGTH of that course?  That was what was I said that got the quizzical looks.  I could well be off my rocker, wouldn't be the first time.  Whaddya think?

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

I tend to look at this slighty different...maybe its valid and maybe its not.

As 3's and 5's are far less than 4's, I like to group the 3's with the 5's and ask the question.  Is the 3's and 5's group the strength of the course or it the 4s?

In the case of ballyneal, I beleieve that its 11 par 4's are stronger than its 4 3's and 3 5's combined.

At PD, I feel this just may go the other way with its 9 4's and 5 3's/4 5's, but this may just be too close to call.

But then we can take this to the next level and compare these groups in several different ways, and even across courses.

[Ed Oden]

Personally, I would give a slight edge to PD for now.  But I can't promise that won't change once BN matures.  I suspect we have only seen the tip of the iceberg with respect to what BN will become. 

To further the discussion, here are some side by side pics of a few holes:

#3 at PD...

...and at BN.


#4 at PD...

...and at BN.


#7 at PD...

...and at BN.


#10 at PD...

...and at BN.


#11 at PD...

...and at BN.


#13 at PD...

...and at BN.


#14 at PD...

...and at BN.


Sorry, I don't have as many pics of PD as BN so I can't complete all 18 holes with anything meaningful.

Ed

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed - no need to apologize - you've done yeoman's duty already - many thanks!

Good lord, those pics say enough - these are two very very great golf courses.  Choosing between them is pretty futile.

One comment - perhaps my contribution to the BN lore... do you happen to have a picture of 16?  We played that twice in a pretty nice helping wind, such that even from a backish tee, one could hit a hard draw and get his ball into what I named "the Bowl of Achievement" - down below the large fairway bunker - leaving 170 or so into the green.  I'd love to see a pic of that... and hear comments about how great my drive was... or not....     

[Jerry Kluger]

Kalen: It seems that everytime I play BN the wind is left to right on #4 and I wind up in the right part of the fairway or worse which means that the right bunker complex comes into play on the second shot as it is in the center of the fairway from my angle -  in other words, my lousy golf game is being used to cover my statement.

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