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Anthony Fowler

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Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« on: September 21, 2008, 09:45:24 PM »
Mathematicians trace their scientific ancestry back to the great Paul Erdos and assign themselves an Erdos number.  If you published a paper with Erdos you are an Erdos 1.  If you published with an Erdos 1 you are an Erdos 2, etc.  Biologist in various fields do the same thing, uncovering the lineage of mentorship that leads them to the greats of their field.

Can anyone trace a modern GCA back to one of the greats: Colt, MacKenzie, Ross, MacDonald, Tillinghast, Flynn, or Thomas?

In order to be linked to a GCA, another GCA must have collaborated on a course with him, worked for him, or studied under him.  How many links does it take some of the modern GCAs to get back to the oldies?

Additionally, if people are interested, I think it would be fun to create the network of GCAs.  We will need to collect all the information we have about all GCAs regarding who they worked for, studied under, and collaborated with.  After creating this, we could determine the shortest path between any 2 GCAs in the network. 

One final question: What do you think the average distance would be between any 2 randomly selected GCAs in the network?  My guess is that it would be less than 8.



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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2008, 10:01:16 PM »
Anthony...I think your hypothesis is for the most part correct. Its been done before by others with interesting results...and they all fall within the parameters you describe.

You will not find linkage for me though.
 
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

JMorgan

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Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2008, 10:26:02 PM »
Homo ludens
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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2008, 10:41:42 PM »
You calling me a homo ludens? :)

Enlighten me please.... ;)
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Jim Nugent

Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2008, 10:48:20 PM »
Erdos numbers in math are treated more as a joke than anything else.  Though Erdos was prolific, and worked with many, many mathematicians. 
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JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2008, 10:56:43 PM »
Er, "man playing," mr. cowley... though  was referring to the pretend/fantasy version of myself as golf course architect when i typed those words. I do now, at this moment realize, however, that sometimes you probably wish you were JMorgan (now aka homo ludens) from the Atlas de GolfClub.  (I'm sure that can still be arranged for a small fee.  Let me talk to some people.)

(Paul, to make the deal sweeter -- since I haven't heard from you yet -- I will note that my science ancestry traces back to two Nobel prize winners in physiology or medicine.) ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 11:34:32 AM by JMorgan »
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Anthony Fowler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2008, 11:07:48 PM »
Quote from: Jim Nugent on September 21, 2008, 10:48:20 PM
Erdos numbers in math are treated more as a joke than anything else.  Though Erdos was prolific, and worked with many, many mathematicians. 

Yes, Erdos numbers are somewhat of a joke and are "just for fun".  Knowing the Ross number of Brian Silva would be "just for fun" but fun nonetheless.  Network analysis, on the other hand, is not "just for fun" but can also be fun.
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Clyde Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2008, 08:17:06 AM »
Some years ago, Geoffrey Cornish developed a genealogy of golf architects that showed who they worked for and worked with. I'm pretty sure Golf Digest published a short version of it.
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Anthony Fowler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2008, 10:00:54 AM »
Quote from: Clyde Johnston on September 22, 2008, 08:17:06 AM
Some years ago, Geoffrey Cornish developed a genealogy of golf architects that showed who they worked for and worked with. I'm pretty sure Golf Digest published a short version of it.

Thanks Clyde.  I haven't been able to find any trace of it yet.  If anyone has any info, could you let us know?  Thanks.

We still haven't gotten anyone to figure out  a Tilly number, so I'll pose on more question:

If we did create the network of GCAs, who would be the most connected people, the hubs?  Pete Dye has been in the business a long time, has had a lot of collaborations, and has had a lot of former understudies go on to independent success.  My guess would be that he is the biggest hub.  Any other nominations?
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Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2008, 10:22:27 AM »
Clyde,

I have a copy of the "tree" somewhere, but finding it is a different thing...

I think my branches take me back to Fred Findlay although I'm not sure and I'm not sure why. 

I'll look for it.

Lester
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George_Williams

Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2008, 03:40:29 PM »
Clyde & others-

I just found mine!  Mr. Cornish called them his "Design Lineage Charts".  I'm in Chart #16- Robert Bruce Harris at the top- the infamous "Chicago School of Golf Design".  You are in Chart # 22- Willard C. Byrd- as if you didn't know.  I don't see Lester in Fred Findlay's- Chart #10.  Who are you connected with, Lester?  I'll try to find where you go.  Was it the Aults, Lovings or George Cobb?  Looks like Stanley Thompson has the biggest tree!

GW
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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2008, 10:21:53 PM »
George....see me anywhere? Should I go to work tommorrow? ;)
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2008, 10:36:43 PM »
My ancestors must be in a witness protection program... ;D
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"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2008, 10:39:24 PM »
Quote from: Mike_Young on September 22, 2008, 10:36:43 PM
My ancestors must be in a witness protection program... ;D

Don't you mean witless Mike?   ;D

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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2008, 10:43:37 PM »
Quote from: Kalen Braley on September 22, 2008, 10:39:24 PM
Quote from: Mike_Young on September 22, 2008, 10:36:43 PM
My ancestors must be in a witness protection program... ;D

Don't you mean witless Mike?   ;D


both
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"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2008, 11:09:32 PM »
Anthony:

I think Kelly Blake Moran (and some of his compatriots) would be traceable back as follows:

Kelly worked for Robert von Hagge, von Hagge worked for Dick Wilson, Wilson worked for William Flynn.

I don't know if he would go so far as to claim that Flynn worked for Hugh Wilson, and Hugh Wilson worked for C.B. Macdonald.

My own tree only goes as far back as Pete Dye, but it's worked out okay.
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Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2008, 11:10:33 PM »
I've got it here somewhere.  There used to ba a link to one of my old home pages, but I can't remember which one.  I'll find it.
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Jim Thompson

Jim Thompson

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Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2008, 11:30:04 PM »
I think this was the last one, but I'm not sure.  I know we added a bunch of guys to it.

https://publish.comcast.net/dpath/hBdXJPISQkr0UqFxGsa0ILNuCY8i-wC1Qo8QesjkXAUgTb18rfhkbMZdJJyNxKLMeEb5AWUl35NQFQqZSPvdXA/
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Jim Thompson

Anthony Fowler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2008, 11:50:00 PM »
This is great!  It must have taken quite some time to assemble all this information.

It appears that all we have in this diagram are student/mentor relationships.  This means that many trees are all separated with one founder at the top.  If we added in connections between architects that have collaborated together, could we get the separate trees to come together to form a single web?  Is there much cross breeding between architecture families or does it seem that people stick to their own tree?
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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2008, 10:12:06 AM »
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2008, 12:36:53 PM »
Get your Doak 1 while it is still possible, join George Bahto and others in contributing to Old MacDonald.
 ;D
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2008, 09:34:38 AM »
George,

I apprenticed under Algie Pulley who had worked at first with Eddie Ault.

Lester
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George_Williams

Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2008, 10:52:11 AM »
TD-

You are correct- Chart #9 shows Kelly linked back to Hugh Wilson, however, it stops there and does not link Wilson to CB MacDonald.  Only ones listed under him are Raynor, Banks, Whigham & Ralph Barton.  It stops there.

Lester-

There you go- I've penciled you in as a new branch on the Fred Findlay #10 tree!
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David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2008, 01:43:25 PM »
Anthony -

I recall the Sports Illustrated Golf Plus supplement publishing a "tree" of golf course architects about 3 to 5 years ago.  It traced who worked for/apprenticed with who going back to the golden age guys.

Sorry, I have no idea how to track down a copy, other than to contact the SI Golf Plus staff and see if they can dig up one for you..

DT 
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Ian Andrew

Re: Your Architectural Ancestry -- The Network of GCAs
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2008, 08:27:21 PM »
I'm:
1. Stanley Thompson
2. Robbie Robinson
3. Doug Carrick
4. Ian Andrew

Though I don't know what that means since I only met Thompson once for the feature interview. ;)
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