[Patrick_Mucci]

are they just bad course managers ?

Recently I joined a threesome and was shocked at the blatant disregard for architectural features that would impact their play and scores.

They were playing against two other threesomes.

They hit several second shots into fairway bunkers that intrude into the fairway, short of a green.
One was on a par 4, the other on a par 5.
In neither case could they get to the green with their second shot, but, both bunkers were clearly in play.

Instead of playing short of the fairway bunkers, they hit away, and into them.

In other cases, with OB right, instead of teeing up right and hitting away from the OB, the golfer teed sup left and hit his tee shot OB.

In other situations, instead of putting or hitting a low lofted running shot, they used Lob, Sand or pitching wedges to front hole locations where semi-false fronts existed.  In each and every case, they either left the ball short or hit it far beyond the hole.

In other instances I watched a higher handicap, who lacked power, take a wood out of deep, lush rough, repeatedly

As I watched mistep after mistep, it became apparent that a good coach/caddy/guide could save them a significant number of strokes,  provided that they would listen.

Is there a sense amongst golfers that they can overcome the architectural features regardless of their abilities ?

Is there a sense amongst golfers that they're better than they really are ?

Or, do they lack the understanding of spacial relationships between the features, risk/reward  and the continuum of the "wheels coming off syndrome ?

[jeffwarne]

Patrick,
I often tell my clients that if they managed their businesses they way they managed their golf games, they'd be broke.

As we've found out in the past year, many of them do

[Ronald Montesano]

Amateurs don't lay up because pros don't lay up and because they don't have or trust their wedge games.  Since pros go for all greens in regulation, amateurs feel it is their divine right to do the same (I get caught doing it, so I know from whence I speak!)  In spite of the Dave Pelz short game system, flawless if one ever was, amateurs decelerate long swings into short follow throughs and tend to chunk most 20-70 yard wedge shots, precisely the ones you would leave if you didn't "go for it."  If golfers had short games, they would logically look for the best angle from which to enter the putting surface and subsequently make a proper layup shot.  That help?

[Adam Clayman]

Pat, Having caddied for many types of people, I'd say the ones you cite are just oblivious to anything but the flagstick.
My opinion is this is mostly due to a total lack of experience and an understanding of the finer points of the sport. The rest of it is probably apathy.

I'll tell guys that when they are sick of hitting the ball the way they do, they will seek out a change. Until then, slice away to your hearts content.

I guess I was somewhat lucky. I never looked to play tournament golf until I was ready. I wasn't ready until I learned enough rules, and my own game, to make the experience fruitful.

Of the real golfers out there, the majority do not seek out tournaments. It boggles the mind until you realize the opportunities to play organized well thought out tournaments are few and far between. Likely as far as the two coasts. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, Having caddied for many types of people, I'd say the ones you cite are just oblivious to anything but the flagstick.

My opinion is this is mostly due to a total lack of experience and an understanding of the finer points of the sport. The rest of it is probably apathy.

Adam, the amazing thing about this is that all of the threesome had been members of the club for at least 30 years, so it's not as if they were inexperienced golfers or new to the golf course.  And, they were mid-handicaps 9-11.

I'll tell guys that when they are sick of hitting the ball the way they do, they will seek out a change. Until then, slice away to your hearts content.

I guess I was somewhat lucky. I never looked to play tournament golf until I was ready. I wasn't ready until I learned enough rules, and my own game, to make the experience fruitful.

Of the real golfers out there, the majority do not seek out tournaments. It boggles the mind until you realize the opportunities to play organized well thought out tournaments are few and far between. Likely as far as the two coasts. 

I guess that's why Bobby Jones stated words to the effect that:
"There's golf and then there's tournament golf"

[Matt_Cohn]

Patrick,
I often tell my clients that if they managed their businesses they way they managed their golf games, they'd be broke.

As we've found out in the past year, many of them do

That made me actually LOL.

But yeah, most people are lousy at course management, but I'm not sure they care. They're out there to have fun, not shoot a score.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Cohn,

I don't know anyone, nor have I met anyone over the last 50 years, who didn't care about their score, unless they were practicing something in particular.

And, I don't know very many golfers, who upon shooting a very poor round for them, had a lot of fun.

[Andy Troeger]

Patrick,
My initial impression was the golfers you described were just inexperienced and hadn't figured out how to score.

Unfortunately given your other post, they must just not be very intuitive. I could say something less polite as well, but you can probably figure that out. I would agree that its hard to believe they don't care, but at the same time they evidently don't put much effort into getting better.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Andy,

Could it be that they're blinded by the moment ?

Be it a bad lie, partners position, difficulty of the shot ?

It's hard to ignore a bunker that's clearly unfriendly, in its look from the approach and in playing from it.

Yet, they were clearly ignored and the golfers suffered the consequences.

I could understand this happening at GCGC as many of the bunkers are below grade and not highly visible, but, these bunkers scream at you.

[Andy Troeger]

Patrick,
I don't have a rational explanation 

Maybe they just worry about making good swings and not so much about the features of the course. There's certainly something to be said for trying to make good swings, but a little course managment does go a long way.

[Tim Nugent]

Patrick, those must be the breed of member who would be quick to blame the architect for putting the bunkers in the "wrong place" because that's where they hit the ball.

By the way, I do play sometimes just for the hell of it and don't keep  or care about score.  I just play each shot one at a time and just go on to the next one without rally caring about the last - like abunch of one stroke matches with myself.

[Ken Moum]

Andy,

Could it be that they're blinded by the moment ?

Be it a bad lie, partners position, difficulty of the shot ?

It's hard to ignore a bunker that's clearly unfriendly, in its look from the approach and in playing from it.

Yet, they were clearly ignored and the golfers suffered the consequences.

I could understand this happening at GCGC as many of the bunkers are below grade and not highly visible, but, these bunkers scream at you.

The sad truth is, most of us suck like a Hoover....

Despite me carrying an 11 at the moment. There's a very low probability of me hitting any shot longer than 75 yards where I intend to.

OTOH, unlike 95% of the guys I play with, I have a pretty good idea of how far I can hit any given club. I also have no delusions about what kind of lie I need to hit a fairway wood.

The SOP of most amatuers is to think, "I am 250 yards from the green, that calls for a three wood."

Just yesterday morning I watched a guy in my group roll hit three wood three times in a row, none of which traveled farther than 50 yards. He said, "I can never hit that thing."

Ya think? He's got no business hitting a three wood off the deck--it costs him shots nearly every time he hits it.

I spent some time recently convincing another friend to A) stop trying to hit a three wood out of the rough, just because he was 200+ yards out, then B) take the damned thing out of his bag entirely.

After a couple of rounds without it in his bag, he actually thanked me.

The point is that nearly all the golfers I know want to score well, and obsess about their scores, but play more like Phil the Thrill.

Ken

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, those must be the breed of member who would be quick to blame the architect for putting the bunkers in the "wrong place" because that's where they hit the ball.

By the way, I do play sometimes just for the hell of it and don't keep  or care about score.  I just play each shot one at a time and just go on to the next one without rally caring about the last - like abunch of one stroke matches with myself.

Tim,

Playing with yourself doesn't count, and shouldn't be admitted in public.

[David_Tepper]

This thread reminds me of the chapter in Tommy Armour's "How To Play Your Best Golf All The Time," where he takes a member of his club around the course and forces him to make the more conservative play on almost every shot. Of course, the guy shoots one of his best scores ever.

The truth is, most golfers a LOUSY course managers. They play expecting their shots to have the best possible outcome and pay little or no attention to what the worst possible outcome might be.  (Guilty as charged! )

They feel entitled/obliged to hit driver 14 times a round.  I have often taken players around a course I play regularly. When I tell them to hit their 190-yard club on a certain short par-4, I am almost always asked, "Why can't I hit driver?"

 

[Rick Sides]

Pat,
If its one thing I learned since playing a few years ago is that I am not a tour player-not even close. The majority of players I play with automatically pull driver at every par 4 and 5, underclub 80% of the time and never lay up. We all want to hit a beautiful 2nd shot onto the green and one or two putt, but my theory and advice for the average joe is, if you are 180 yards or further from the green, lay up.  Work on your short game and try this method and you will see your scores drop. It aint pretty, but it works

[Patrick_Mucci]

Those that ignore or don't learn by their recognition of the tactical signals sent by the architectural features are doomed to post higher scores and be labeled, "ball beaters" and/or "hacks".

[Michael]

I think it is a great observation that most are just focused on the Green/pin..and are seduced by watching the Pros on TV.

 I think it also has to do on when you started playing the game... the people that taught you and played the rounds with you as you were learning.

One of the hardest aspects to try to get across to newer players is to look at where you can miss as well as where you want the shot to go..it take a while and more then a few strokes and balls to realize that a "proper miss" isn't all that bad.

[Patrick_Mucci]

If the consensus is that most golfers ignore features and tend to focus on the flag (tunnel vision) shouldn't the architectural features become more pronounced, until they reach or exceed the penal level ?

Wouldn't that get the golfer's attention ?

[Philippe Binette]

I comes down to what I often say...

We teach people to hit the ball, we don't teach them to PLAY golf...

people really manage the game badly. They don't understand space on a golf shot... When is the last time (other than when a hazard stops the fairway) you've seen somebody hit 3 wood instead of driver...

People watch the majors, Tiger hitting irons of the tee, pitching out of the rough... then they step on the tee and don't think about it.

Tiger Woods is never hitting three wood out of the rough, but Joe public is always tring to.

[Michael]

If the consensus is that most golfers ignore features and tend to focus on the flag (tunnel vision) shouldn't the architectural features become more pronounced, until they reach or exceed the penal level ?

Wouldn't that get the golfer's attention ?

Most would complain it was "unfair"..never stopping to THINK how to give themselves the best chance to overcome it..

[Phil Benedict]

I tend to play with the same guys most of the time so I don't pay too much attention to their course management.

I'm attending the Beechtree outing in a couple of weeks and will be playing with 3 golfers who will be new to me.  I'll try to monitor their course management and report back.

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