‘You Must Cheer when Europe miss putts’ Please tell me he did not say that

[Jon Wiggett]

Tim,

I will cheer if my team wins. I will cheer that my team has won due to the missed putt of the opposition. I will applaud a good shot of the opposition but I retract from the thought of cheering the missing of a putt for the shot itself.

I agree with supporting your own team but find cheering the miss fortunes of others to be amongst the lowest form of expression.

[Dan_Callahan]

you colourful use of langauge (I will not say english) is what led me to my conclusion, that you don't see, it is why you are.

Huh? That might be the most unintelligible pseudo-sentence I've ever read.

As for Leonard's putt, we obviously don't agree on whether it was clutch or not. I happen to think that when your team enters the final day of the Ryder Cup down 10-6, and in your own match you rally from four holes down with seven to play, knowing that your team needs every possible point, and you hole a 45-foot birdie putt on the 17th hole . . . well, that's pretty damn clutch.

[Jon Wiggett]

you colourful use of langauge (I will not say english) is what led me to my conclusion, that you don't see, it is why you are.

Huh? That might be the most unintelligible pseudo-sentence I've ever read.

proves the point maybe Dan.

A clutch putt for me is a putt that changes the course of a match. Leonard's putt didn't do that until his apponent missed so at the time of its holing was not a clutch.

[Kalen Braley]

I think the viewpoints have been well layed out from both sides on this topic. 

I would only add, its very naive to think this is one-sided behavoir or bad blood that started only recently :

http://media.www.dailycollegian.com/media/storage/paper874/news/2002/10/07/Sports/Ryder.Lacks.Good.Behavior.Again-1551232.shtml

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_/ai_77453562

Some excerpts:

That match, actually, would have been crucial had the European fans surrounding the 17th green found silence just 20 minutes earlier during Furyk's birdie putt, a stroke which would have given him a 1-up lead on the 18th tee, and a probable point for America. But a trio of roars during that effort forced Furyk to back away three times, and eventually miss an easy 15-footer.

The problem may have started at the beginning of the week, when official Ryder Cup radios, which went for Ł8 British Pounds (about $12.55), were sold so fans could follow the action on BBC Radio 88.7 FM, no matter their position on the course. It enhanced the viewing experience twofold.

But Sunday, as Furyk set to putt, the spectators surrounding the 17th green forgot to pull away from the action in their ears.

So when Phil Mickelson missed his birdie try on 16 and gave Phillip Price a chance for the victory, they hollered. And Furyk backed away. Then when Price sank his putt to earn the point for Europe, they hollered. And Furyk backed off again. They hollered once more when Niclas Fasth stuck his second shot on the 18th green, with Paul Azinger in the bunker. And Furyk, one the game's most chivalrous members, pulled up for a final time and just shook his head.


In 1947, Henry Cotton accused Ben Hogan of having illegal grooves in his irons. None were found, but Hogan retaliated as U.S. captain in 1949, ordering an inspection of the British side's grooves, which had to be filed down.

In 1957, Tommy Bolt and the equally fiery Eric Brown of Scotland refused to shake hands after Brown's 4-and-3 victory. Later, as a captain, Brown ordered his players not to help the American team look for balls lost in the rough.

And while 1969 is long remembered as the year of Jack Nicklaus' gracious final-hole concession to Tony Jacklin, it was also the year boos trailed the American duo of Ken Still and Dave Hill after a rules dust-up in their match with Brian Huggett and Bernard Gallacher.

[Steve Okula]

The Europeans need to grow some balls and stop their bitching. We hear this every four years when the Cup is played in the U.S. After enduring decades of Seve's boorish behavior, Sergio's poor sportsmanship, Monty's wanking, etc., the European side is in no position to complain. U.S. fans by and large are no better or worse than fans across the pond. In every Cup there are some drunks who get out of control, and there are players (Boo, Sergio) who let their emotions pour out during play. It is part of the Ryder Cup experience and  too much is made of it every time the event is played.

I'm not taking sides on the debate, but the accusation that Montgomery was wanking during Ryder Cup matches is beyond the pale!

[Melvyn Morrow]

To represent your country and behave like that is not acceptable. I accept that both sides have had their moments, but this topic is about the Captains comments.

Why is it being tolerated? Because others have played their childish games in the past does that justify this comment and make it acceptable?

Stop making excuses – it just should not have been said and an apology should have been made, not only to the players but to the spectators both on the course and watching on TV.

Has no one the balls to stand up and stop this nonsense once and for all.

Kalen - Who is being naive - they are there to play golf and represent Us, so should behave accordingly - do you have a problem with that?

[Brian Phillips]

I really do believe that all of this just comes down to culture differences.  I cannot remember where I read this quote but it makes me chuckle every time I tell it to someone...:

"I know a Norwegian that loves his wife so much that he almost told her one day"

That pretty much sums up the Scandinavians!!

I don't think anyone from any side of the pond ever means any malice.

[Mike Sweeney]

Melvyn,

I would assume that with dozens of live and staged interviews, shows and TV plugs leading up to The Ryder Cup, I would be shocked if I did not say at least a few stupid things.

You are turning this into a Kelly Tilghman event.

Do you have any problems with what is actually going on out on the field of play in Louisville? That is where I think Azinger and Faldo should be judged.

So far it seems very pleasant.

[Andy Troeger]

To represent your country and behave like that is not acceptable. I accept that both sides have had their moments, but this topic is about the Captains comments.

Its your thread so I'm not going to argue what its about, but this issue is far greater than one comment made by one captain and goes back many years. Don't expect an apology, just as apologies were seldom issued with the past issues. Quite frankly, given the quality of the competition itself, I think its pretty minor. Obviously it touched a nerve with you.

[JESII]

you colourful use of langauge (I will not say english) is what led me to my conclusion, that you don't see, it is why you are.

Huh? That might be the most unintelligible pseudo-sentence I've ever read.

proves the point maybe Dan.

A clutch putt for me is a putt that changes the course of a match. Leonard's putt didn't do that until his apponent missed so at the time of its holing was not a clutch.

Quoted from Wikipedia:


The competition turned on the 17th hole of a match between American Justin Leonard and Spaniard José María Olazábal. With the match all square at the 17th hole, Leonard needed to earn at least a half-point by either winning one of the last two holes (therefore earning a full point), or finishing the match at all square (therefore earning a half-point) to seal an American victory. After Olazábal's second shot left him with a 22-foot putt on the par-4, Leonard hit his shot within 10 feet of the hole and then watched it roll away from the cup, leaving him with a 45-foot putt for birdie. While sinking a putt of this length is unlikely, Leonard had made putts of 25 and 35 feet earlier in the round. Leonard holed the astounding putt, and a wild celebration ensued with other U.S. players, their wives, and a few fans running onto the green. Had Leonard's putt sealed the match, this type of behavior would have been inappropriate but moot. Knowing that a made putt would extend the match while a miss would assure Leonard of a half-point and the U.S. a victory (the Americans needed 14.5 points to gain the cup due to the Europeans' 1997 victory at Valderrama), Olazábal tried to regain his focus. However, he missed the difficult putt, and the American team celebrated once again (although the second celebration was more reserved than the first one).

According to the "Best of the Rest" section of ESPN's Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame program, NBC television footage and press photos prove that no official rules (Ryder Cup or PGA) were broken when the Americans celebrated after Leonard's putt (i.e. no one walked in or crossed Olazábal's putting line). However, the game of golf is upheld by many to be "the gentleman's game", and there remain a number of unwritten rules and codes of conduct which the European players believe were being ignored. Many of the American players believed the Europeans' response was hypocritical; they argued that European players - in particular Seve Ballesteros - had been guilty of excessive celebration and gamesmanship as far back as the 1985 Ryder Cup Matches, without attracting the same opprobrium from the European media. Further, a few matches ahead of Leonard-Olazábal, Padraig Harrington had deliberately delayed Mark O'Meara's shot to the green at 17 by slow play and prolonged walking to the hole from his ball, to the point of inspecting the cup, as an act of "gamesmanship", irritating the gallery.


I'd say it was a clutch putt.

[Joe Hancock]

Has no one the balls to stand up and stop this nonsense once and for all.

I have the balls, Mel.

"Now all of you, don't ever say anything you might regret or that sounds stupid or utter anything that someone else won't like".

There, that should take care of it.

Glad I could stand up for you in this moment of turmoil.

Joe

p.s. Azinger was wrong in what he said, but I seem to have lost his phone number so I can't call and tell him to apologize. Perhaps if you wait long enough and read enough articles in the press, you'll get what you're after.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mike

Thanks

Clearly the American Captain is not up to the job otherwise he would not have made such a stupid comment.

Blame me for blowing this up, fine. But all that idiot has to do is to apologise.

Andy

Nerve, no just another stupid comment that reflects upon golf and those who love and play it. Your statement shows that golf is not that important to you otherwise you would be defending the game.  

Joe

What can I say apart from sorry your balls just are not big enough.

[Joe Hancock]

Melvyn, who here can do anything about what Azinger said? Most agree it was wrong, yet you continue to dig for something more. What is it that will pacify you?

EDIT: Your commentary on the size of my balls is equally uncalled for. I'm sorry my sarcasm led you to stoop so low.

[Ronald Montesano]

1.  I have Schweaty Balls.

2.  I am laughing with each passing post.  On Thursday, my high school boys team played our arch rival and went to extra holes after a 12-12 tie.  The opposing  # 1 played off against our # 1.  After the third halved hole, we judged the sky too dark to continue and halted play.  I watched the 9th hole of regulation and the first three playoff holes and witnessed the opposing # 1 pull every trick in the book (walking during address and swing, wiggling foot during putt, clanking clubs during swing)d and simply told our # 1 to confront the boy, order him to stop being such a Richard, and play on.  We play them again on Monday...If it happens again, I'll file an official letter of complaint with the league.  My point?  Let the players sort it out.  This is an architectural forum.

3.  Melvyn, has Captain Saint Nick not done anything worthy of reproach during this melee?  I'd venture he isn't innocent.  Azinger received more ink, is all.

4.  Cheers to English, Cheers to American, Cheers to Canadian, Cheers to Australian.  Four sibling languages united under one common history.  I'm proud to speak American, as was H. L. Mencken

[Anthony Fowler]

Melvyn, I had not heard this comment and if it is true as others have seconded, I thank you for pointing it out to us.  This is something that none of us should tolerate and is completely inexcusable.  It does reflect badly on the U.S. golf community that someone representing the country would say this and that the fans might actually take his directions.

However, I disagree strongly with some of the conclusions that you would like to make.  Despite his position this week, Azinger does not speak for the U.S. golf community and the entire country should not be held accountable for an unsportsmanlike comment from someone that is probably too stupid for us to take seriously.  

Blaming the entire country for Zinger's comment and wanting to boycott American majors demonstrates the same nationalistic narrow mindedness and lack of sportsmanship that Zinger showed in his comment.  

[Andy Troeger]

Andy
Your statement shows that golf is not that important to you otherwise you would be defending the game.  

Melvyn,
Your post above says much more about yourself than it does about me. How dare you question my commitment to the game of golf? Seeing as you insist on making this personal with myself and anyone else who doesn't share your sentiments, I'm done discussing anything with you; Azinger may have been wrong but your comments here to me and others are far worse and more personal. Good day.

[Sean_A]

Why can't folks treat the Ryder Cup as an event to foster congenial relationships in the game and celebrate high quality play?  I really don't care who wins - I am only interested in seeing competitive matches.  So far, that is what I have seen.  All the rest is bullshit.  I don't care where you are from, this routing for countries to the point of bad mouthing (or even really caring who wins to be honest)/mal-clapping (what?) whoever is about as lame as it gets.

Ciao

[Andy Troeger]

Sean,
I agree with you there, the matches this afternoon have been fantastic! I certainly do have a rooting interest, but the good play and good matches this afternoon have been great to watch.

[Melvyn Morrow]

We all have the right to our own opinions. Agree or not – that is your right.

[Andrew Summerell]

Coming from Australia I have followed The Ryder cup for many years from a neutral position. I understand how spirited the contest has become. You can’t control who is in the gallery & I’m sure the players get fired up from time to time, but for the captain to encourage bad sportsmanship is a disgrace.

So far I have read posts that blame it on those who did it before; blame it on passion; blame it on other sports; as well as posts that say it is all right because both sides do it, and apparently it is fine to call a guy we don’t personally know a wanker. I love it when someone’s done something wrong & they excuse it by saying, “well, he did it, so why can’t I.” I’m sure many a gangster has used that argument over the years & I’m sure we all condone their actions.

This is schoolboy stuff. “He pushed me, so I punched him.” I don’t believe you can place fault at the feet of one side or one person, but it still affects golf. It doesn’t matter who did what in the past, it’s what is happening now that matter & it needs someone or one team to rise above this rubbish. That’s what inspirational people do; they leave the past behind (that which cannot be changed) & inspire others to be better people in the present for the benefit of the future.

[Phil McDade]

In the UK we are taught not to cheer opponents mistakes or failures. 

Yes, I'm sure the good folks at Old Trafford have never, ever done that during a ManU-Chelsea match.

One of the stupidest, least well thought out post I have ever read on GCA.  What the Hell has behaviour at Old Trafford got to do with golf?  Do you want golf crowds behaving like ice hockey crowds?  

What Azinger said is unacceptable and to attempt to justify it reflects badly on you.

Mark:

Thanks for the compliment.

Melvyn did not qualify his statement, implying pretty clearly (to me) that US fans are somehow "taught" differently about sportsmanship. As Rick S. points out in his post #43, Melvyn portrayed this as a uniquely American issue, when there is ample evidence it is not.

I don't believe I have posted anything that suggests I've attempted to justify Azinger's comments.

[rboyce]

The players played great and the matches were very competitive. Everybody shook hands after their matches and opposing players even smiled when their competitors pulled off heroic putts. On tv the fans seemed to be in line all day.

Scandalizing a few comments made in the spirit of healthy competition - a topic of no consequence. I've seen more troubling situations at youth soccer games.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Rboyce states
“Scandalizing a few comments made in the spirit of healthy competition - a topic of no consequence. I've seen more troubling situations at youth soccer games”

Well done, puts it in total perspective, if an American makes the comment then it’s OK, any criticism is of no consequence. But don’t worry it’s a figment of Melvyn’s imagination, his anti American propaganda. Many will no doubt expect me to be a communist or even to have lost sight of reality for daring to criticise a guy who is willing to offend the standards of ordinary golfers.

The interesting part through out all of this is that I would have said the same had it been a European who had made that comment. But it was not nor was it just one of the players but a Captain of the Home Team.

The point is so basic – a comment like that has no place in golf – certainly not in an international competition. I certainly do not dispute that this is not the first time, but it should be the last time. Alas there is no one in authority who wants to put a stop to all this nonsense.

Well have your fun, get mad with me, but remember I did not make the statement in the first place. It should not be part of the game and I firmly believe that the golfing bodies should come down hard to stamp out this unacceptable practice. Clearly some of you do not agree.


Phil

My post was certainly based upon Azinger comment, but I agree others have played this stupid game before to the determent of golf. Uniquely American issue - no certainly not and I don't think I have actually said that.

[JESII]

‘You Must Cheer when Europe miss putts’

I have just read a report that the American Captain of the Ryder Cup Team Paul Azinger has told fans ‘You Must Cheer when Europe miss putts’

I hope this is just the newspapers trying to generate a controversy and that the report is totally untrue.

However if there is any fact in this statement – which I sincerely hope there is not, then it shows that Golf in America has fallen to its lowest point. It shames and undermines a proud Nation and the old Scottish pioneers that introduce the game to North America will be turning in their graves.

Lets hope its just the media hype, but if Azinger did utter these words, then I believe the Governing Bodies have only one option and that is to stop the Ryder Cup now and present the Ryder Cup to the European Team because the American Team (through it's Captain) should be disqualified for bringing the sport into disrepute’.

I would go I step further and ask the World Golfers to boycott all Majors in the USA, that how serious I believe that statement (if true) has hurt golf and in particular American Golf.

So for the sake of the Game, friendship and all that’s good in the human spirit,  l hope Paul Azinger did not suggest to the fans ‘You Must Cheer when Europe miss putts’.

Melvyn,

Your initial post went right after "Golf in America".

Your message might be spot on if we are to give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that you would make the same commentary if a European captain said the same thing...but your tone is insulting.

[Melvyn Morrow]

JesII

Go to Hell