‘You Must Cheer when Europe miss putts’ Please tell me he did not say that

[JESII]

JesII

Go to Hell

Interesting.

[Buck Wolter]

Stereotypes based on nationality are always true

Offensive, angry and ginger - Simpsons' Willie defines US image of the Scot


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2491531.ece

[Tim Gavrich]

Melvyn--

Did Old Tom Morris ever employ gamesmanship in matches?  As I understand it, it's been a part of the game--in at least some way--forever.

--Tim

[Brian Phillips]

JesII

Go to Hell

Melvyn,

You have just abused, probably one of the most down to earth and nicest guys on this site...

[Chris Kane]

Melvyn,

You have just abused, probably one of the most down to earth and nice guys on this site...

It doesn't sit nicely with his opening post which mentioned, among other things, "friendship and all that’s good in the human spirit".

[David_Elvins]

Coming from Australia I have followed The Ryder cup for many years from a neutral position. I understand how spirited the contest has become. You can’t control who is in the gallery & I’m sure the players get fired up from time to time, but for the captain to encourage bad sportsmanship is a disgrace.

So far I have read posts that blame it on those who did it before; blame it on passion; blame it on other sports; as well as posts that say it is all right because both sides do it, and apparently it is fine to call a guy we don’t personally know a wanker. I love it when someone’s done something wrong & they excuse it by saying, “well, he did it, so why can’t I.” I’m sure many a gangster has used that argument over the years & I’m sure we all condone their actions.

This is schoolboy stuff. “He pushed me, so I punched him.” I don’t believe you can place fault at the feet of one side or one person, but it still affects golf. It doesn’t matter who did what in the past, it’s what is happening now that matter & it needs someone or one team to rise above this rubbish. That’s what inspirational people do; they leave the past behind (that which cannot be changed) & inspire others to be better people in the present for the benefit of the future.

Great post, Andrew.

[Brian Phillips]

Melvyn--

Did Old Tom Morris ever employ gamesmanship in matches?  As I understand it, it's been a part of the game--in at least some way--forever.

--Tim

Tim,

Apparently not. I think he even refused to come out for match because of some sort of gamesmanship in one big match..

[Mike Sweeney]

JesII

Go to Hell

Interesting.

Sully,

If this is some kind of code about the Hell Bunker at Pine Valley, I want in!

Melvyn,

Time to hide the liquor cabinet key. Just for the record, I think Azinger is pretty obnoxious overall, but not because of one quote that may have been taken out of context.

[Melvyn Morrow]

In the cool light of day, I have IM Jes and apologised for my last thread directed at him. 

It was out of order.

But then so are the comments and pictures on this site because someone does not agree with the American Captain. 

I am at fault for lowering the tone and making a stupid comment to Jes at 3 am, but for that I hope he accepts my apology and we move on. 

[Mike Sweeney]

Melvyn,

If that is the worst thing that happens today........

Next time at The Old Course, Sweeney and Sullivan vs Melvyn and Fat Baldy Drummer for lunch.

[Kalen Braley]

Phil

My post was certainly based upon Azinger comment, but I agree others have played this stupid game before to the determent of golf. Uniquely American issue - no certainly not and I don't think I have actually said that.

Melyvn,

I understand your passionate about this, and thats fine I respect that.

But looking at this objectively you must admit when you said this in your opening post, this is nothing less than an implied attack on this being a distinct American issue and put people on the defensive.

However if there is any fact in this statement – which I sincerely hope there is not, then it shows that Golf in America has fallen to its lowest point. It shames and undermines a proud Nation and the old Scottish pioneers that introduce the game to North America will be turning in their graves.

I would go I step further and ask the World Golfers to boycott all Majors in the USA, that how serious I believe that statement (if true) has hurt golf and in particular American Golf.

[Brian Phillips]

Just to clarify one thing...I meant exactly what I said about Old Tom.  He never ever had a history of gamesmanship whatsoever.  If it came across as I was implying something else then sorry..

Melvyn can probably explain the situation that I referred to better than I can.

[A.G._Crockett]

Perhaps I missed it in reading back over this thread, but can anybody provide a link to what Azinger ACTUALLY said?  No hearsay, but his exact words in context?  I missed it, and would like to see it for myself. 

I have no objection to the biannual sport of American-bashing; whatever suits you and makes you feel better about yourself is o.k., I suppose.  But I do like facts, and I'm no Azinger fan anyway, so I'd love to read this for myself.

All of that said, and granting that Kiawah was over the top and completely our fault, with the exception of the incident at Brookline (in unprecedented circumstances, to say the least, and apologized for many, many times over the years since)  I have seen NO substantive differences between behavior of the two teams, nor in the conduct of the two sets of fans over many, many years of watching the Ryder Cup.

[Rich Goodale]

Melvyn, et. al.

The Euro fans started this appalling tradition in 1981 at Walton Heath (shocking much of the old guard in the US team), and continue to this day to be just as obnoxious and the USA fans in their lack of sportsmanship and respect and understanding of the traditions of the game.

Let he who is without sin.......

Rich

[Brian Phillips]

Melvyn, et. al.

The Euro fans started this appalling tradition in 1981 at Walton Heath (shocking much of the old guard in the US team), and continue to this day to be just as obnoxious and the USA fans in their lack of sportsmanship and respect and understanding of the traditions of the game.

Let he who is without sin.......

Rich

Rich my old mate,

That is a load of old bollocks...

 

[Jon Wiggett]

According to the "Best of the Rest" section of ESPN's Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame program, NBC television footage and press photos prove that no official rules (Ryder Cup or PGA) were broken when the Americans celebrated after Leonard's putt (i.e. no one walked in or crossed Olazábal's putting line).
I'd say it was a clutch putt.

JESII,

my recollection is that Olazabal's line was very much trampled on. That no rules were broken is not at issue as there is no rule forbidding you to walk on someone elses putting line. That exactly that example is used shows how little regard or maybe knowledge the author had of the game and its R&E thus making it irrelevant.

Also you take me out of context. I say at the time of his holing it it was no clutch putt i.e. it was unkown how important it really was as it was not a winning putt until after the putt of Olazabal's did not go in. I wonder how the reaction would be if such a thing were to happen to Tiger?

[A.G._Crockett]

According to the "Best of the Rest" section of ESPN's Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame program, NBC television footage and press photos prove that no official rules (Ryder Cup or PGA) were broken when the Americans celebrated after Leonard's putt (i.e. no one walked in or crossed Olazábal's putting line).
I'd say it was a clutch putt.

JESII,

my recollection is that Olazabal's line was very much trampled on. That no rules were broken is not at issue as there is no rule forbidding you to walk on someone elses putting line. That exactly that example is used shows how little regard or maybe knowledge the author had of the game and its R&E thus making it irrelevant.

Also you take me out of context. I say at the time of his holing it it was no clutch putt i.e. it was unkown how important it really was as it was not a winning putt until after the putt of Olazabal's did not go in. I wonder how the reaction would be if such a thing were to happen to Tiger?

Jon Wiggett,
Do you find it a burden to have a memory that is even better than film footage from ESPN?

As to whether or not it was a clutch putt, your contention that it was not makes you THE only person that saw it that has EVER said that.  In fact, the American team's reaction was precisely because it was known at the time.

[rboyce]

was it good form when Olazabal broke the rules yesterday by giving advice to his side even though as asst. captain he's not allowed to do that? was it good sportsmanship when the Euros published articles demeaning the US wives? was it proper spectating when British Open fans use their phones constantly during important shots? Is it quaint and modest when streakers run around the Open every year? is Faldo referring to something other than unsportsmanlike gamesmanship in his Golf Digest profile?

http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/2006/07/myshot_gd0607

"There are some secrets you'll never get out of me. The biggest is the strategy we Europeans use in foursomes during the Ryder Cup. It's one area of the Ryder Cup we've dominated, and this strategy really is the reason we've won four of the last five Ryder Cups. Tony Jacklin invented it, and it's beautiful in its simplicity and devastating in terms of its effectiveness in the alternate-shot format. If the Americans got wind of it, there would go the Ryder Cup. It's subtle, but very visible when you look at it head-on. An observant person can see it. " - Nick Faldo

I think the most sportsmanlike player and fans I have seen in the last few years have been Canadian. Enjoy the Cup today...
 

[Rich Goodale]

Melvyn, et. al.

The Euro fans started this appalling tradition in 1981 at Walton Heath (shocking much of the old guard in the US team), and continue to this day to be just as obnoxious and the USA fans in their lack of sportsmanship and respect and understanding of the traditions of the game.

Let he who is without sin.......

Rich

Rich my old mate,

That is a load of old bollocks...

 

Brian

1.  You are too young to remember 1981.
2.  My point of view was (reluctantly) confirmed by the venerable Guardian golf writer David Davies several years ago.

Cheers

Rich

[Mark Pearce]

Film shown this morning over here of Kim (a match follower) apparently body checking Poulter (a player) as he left a tee yesterday.  Words were clearly exchanged.  It is to be hoped that this is an example of a film clip being misleading but Poulter, when asked about it, clearly believed Kim had acted deliberately. 

If it is true, does anybody here believe that it was acceptable for Kim to behave this way?

[Rich Goodale]

If it is true, not me.

[Brian Phillips]

Film shown this morning over here of Kim (a match follower) apparently body checking Poulter (a player) as he left a tee yesterday.  Words were clearly exchanged.  It is to be hoped that this is an example of a film clip being misleading but Poulter, when asked about it, clearly believed Kim had acted deliberately. 

If it is true, does anybody here believe that it was acceptable for Kim to behave this way?

I saw that happen yesterday and thought exactly the same as Poulter..

[Jon Wiggett]

According to the "Best of the Rest" section of ESPN's Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame program, NBC television footage and press photos prove that no official rules (Ryder Cup or PGA) were broken when the Americans celebrated after Leonard's putt (i.e. no one walked in or crossed Olazábal's putting line).
I'd say it was a clutch putt.

JESII,

my recollection is that Olazabal's line was very much trampled on. That no rules were broken is not at issue as there is no rule forbidding you to walk on someone elses putting line. That exactly that example is used shows how little regard or maybe knowledge the author had of the game and its R&E thus making it irrelevant.

Also you take me out of context. I say at the time of his holing it it was no clutch putt i.e. it was unkown how important it really was as it was not a winning putt until after the putt of Olazabal's did not go in. I wonder how the reaction would be if such a thing were to happen to Tiger?

Jon Wiggett,
Do you find it a burden to have a memory that is even better than film footage from ESPN?

As to whether or not it was a clutch putt, your contention that it was not makes you THE only person that saw it that has EVER said that.  In fact, the American team's reaction was precisely because it was known at the time.

AGC,

having never being aware of seeing the footage from ESPN I tend to go with what I actually recollect seeing. I do not say that my recollection is always perfect but I doubt that you believe anything written especially if contradicts what you remember.

As to the second matter my contention is that for me clutch putt is a putt that is a turning point in a match. Although Leonards putt was an outstanding hole out and was done under the pressure of knowing it could change the match had Olazabal holed his it would not have been that and for for me was first a clutch putt when it became a winning putt.

[Rich Goodale]

PS--I think Azinger was very wrong when he said what is in the title of this thread, but there is one mitigating circumstance as to why he made such a stupid statement.  The first time I ever heard a crowd wildly cheering a missed putt, at any venue, in any competition, was in the 1987 Open on the 18th hole at Muirfield, when Azinger missed a putt which would have put him in a playoff with Faldo.  Anybody who doubts this, get an unbowderlized tape of the incident.  It was a pitifully unsportsmanlike and jingositic gesture by that crowd around the green, as is any cheering of anybody's misfortune in our game of golf.

PPS--AG Crockett is 100% right.  Anybody who parrots that "trampling of Olllie's line" crap regarding the 17th at Brookline should seek out the facts rather than relying on the unreliable accounts of some of the British press and false urban legends.

[Mark Pearce]

Perhaps I missed it in reading back over this thread, but can anybody provide a link to what Azinger ACTUALLY said?  No hearsay, but his exact words in context?  I missed it, and would like to see it for myself. 

I have no objection to the biannual sport of American-bashing; whatever suits you and makes you feel better about yourself is o.k., I suppose.  But I do like facts, and I'm no Azinger fan anyway, so I'd love to read this for myself.

All of that said, and granting that Kiawah was over the top and completely our fault, with the exception of the incident at Brookline (in unprecedented circumstances, to say the least, and apologized for many, many times over the years since)  I have seen NO substantive differences between behavior of the two teams, nor in the conduct of the two sets of fans over many, many years of watching the Ryder Cup.

I think that's right.  Yesterday morning I had an argument with a member of my club who was criticising the behaviour of the Valhalla crowds.  In my view they are no more partisan (and there's nothing wrong with a bit of partisanship in sport) than the crowds at the K Club and the atmosphere has been fine.  Azinger's comments have not resulted in unacceptable crowd behaviour.  I was also impressed by Weekley accepting that his day 1 antics were over the top and moderating his behaviour on the second day.