‘You Must Cheer when Europe miss putts’ Please tell me he did not say that

[Tom Huckaby]

Methinks most here have miss the point of Zinger's comments.  Of course none of us would cheer when an opponent misses a shot.  But that's not exactly what Zinger was saying.

He did NOT implore our crowd to chear missed putts, not exactly.  If you listened to his comments - and his explanations - what he encouraged the US fans to do was cheer for WINS of golf holes - no matter how such occurred.   In the past, our crowds generally have cheered when our boys made putts to win holes, but no so much when the win occurred via an opponent's miss.  That's a natural function of being used to watching individual play, where no matter how much one is rooting for Tiger, one does not cheer a Phil miss.... that's just the way golf works, world-wide.

In the UK/Europe, they figured out long ago that team golf is different from individual golf, for better or for worse - and cheering for a win no matter how it happens is OK.  THus wins of holes achieved via US missed putts were always cheered... which of course must have seemed strange the first time it happened (and I trust Rich about it being 1981 Walton Heath), but just became more and more normal over there, such that it has occurred regularly ever since.  Zinger's impression (right or wrong, who knows) was that this was NOT the case (or at least not as much) for matches held in the US - that is, that our fans cheered for wins achieved via made putts or concessions, but not so much for wins achieved via opponent's misses.

So he was encouraging our fans to make fair fair, and just act as the Europeans have for so long... just act in terms of what has become normal for this event.

Now you can argue that this behavior is bad form, bad for golf, bad for the Ryder Cup - whatever.  In essence I'd agree; I prefer the old way where only made putts and good shots were cheered.

But I also think it's wrong to single out and vilify Zinger for his comments.  All he was doing was trying to encourage our fans to support our team, in the manner that had become acceptable.

If one vilifies Zinger, one must also vilify all previous captains since 1981.  None have spoken out against this practice and in fact all have seemingly encouraged it.

TH

[Michael Blake]

The cheering when Sergio missed a 3 foot putt was uncalled for, rude and unsportsman like.

It's just another example of boorish behavior that not only goes unaccounted for, but is ENCOURAGED.

To those defending these idiotic outbursts, ask yourself one question, would you cheer if your opponent missed a shot ?

There's no question that this is more of a problem on this side of the pond, especially when we're talking about golf.  Football is another matter...

That was the short putt that Kim didn't concede to Garcia for a halve?

Garcia's miss won the hole for Kim.

Does it make a difference that the cheering was for Kim winning the hole and not necessarily for Garcia missing a putt?

Is there a difference? 

[Mike Hendren]

I thought it all started with the Parks v Morris' and all the rubes from Musselburgh?

If I get stoned and sing all night long
it's a family tradition.
-Hank Williams, Jr.

[Tom Huckaby]

Michael:  there SHOULDN'T be a difference, and in a perfect world there wouldn't be....

But the RC has been imperfect for quite awhile.  See my post above.  They were cheering for the win of the hole, as has become customary.

TH

[Mike Hendren]

I thought the only regrettable act was the thoughtless spewing of beer and champagne on the American flag draped over the clubhouse railing.  

Bogey

[Tim Pitner]

I also don't think it's a big deal, in the context of a Ryder Cup, to encourage cheering after a missed putt if it results in a win.  That's part of a Ryder Cup these days and I don't see anything wrong with it.  I don't think it's the case, though, that the Americans were just catching up with the Europeans--by all accounts, there was very partisan behavior going on at Kiawah and Brookline, for example. 

The only behavior that I saw that was objectionable was Weekley inciting the crowd when the Europeans still had to play--that was bad form and I think Azinger instructed Weekley on that. 

I have to say that U.S. fans are just quite different from European fans.  We are reared on the very violent sport of American football and don't really embrace the concept of a well-played match that is lost.  So often in football/soccer, excellent plays don't result in points and fans learn to appreciate good play that is not rewarded.  Winning is everything here.  I don't think that necessarily translates well to golf.  And, I know, European football has hooligans and fascists and whatnot, but I still stand by the above view. 

The other noticeable difference is, as Tom Birkert pointed out in another thread, the songs.  The Europeans have fun songs.  We have the very martial chant of U-S-A.  It just sounds more aggressive and not as festive. 

[Kalen Braley]

I have to say that U.S. fans are just quite different from European fans.  We are reared on the very violent sport of American football and don't really embrace the concept of a well-played match that is lost.  So often in football/soccer, excellent plays don't result in points and fans learn to appreciate good play that is not rewarded.  Winning is everything here.  I don't think that necessarily translates well to golf.  And, I know, European football has hooligans and fascists and whatnot, but I still stand by the above view. 

Tim,

I thought baseball was the original American sport, you know baseball, mom, and hot apple-pie?

While its true that football gets the best ratings among the team sport basketball, baseball, hockey, etc are still doing very well with huge followings as well.

And last time I checked, those "non-violent" Euros love thier boxing and rugby as well.  And with all the alleged "injuries" that soccer players seem to miracously recover from 99% of the time, you could even claim soccer belongs in this group as well. 

[RJ_Daley]

I must say, Mike H has some comments I agree with.  

Frankly, I think the whole thing started to go down hill with the advent of the TV media covering golf and finding a vehicle to sell products during commercials.  The more they can flog the event, gin up jingoism and rivalry, dumb down spectators to impulsive behavior designed to stimulate juvenile emotions and sell products as a response to advertising, the worse all sport and spectator sportsmanship has become.

I watched that news conference with the Euro's and some of he media questions were moronic, and again backbencher scribes were probing anyway they could for controversy or baiting so that some horsecrap writer can get attention in his tag line and gin up more controversy.  It is rare to see an insightful article, only sensational and bombastic manufactured issues to sell the rag.

From fans that wear their hat backwards because they are told and modeleled to think it looks irreverantly cool and drink until all civility is abandoned, to media expolited tribal behavior to flog brand loyalties and sell sell sell;  gentlemanly sportsmanship is a quaint ideal of the past.

[Dan_Callahan]

I have to say that U.S. fans are just quite different from European fans.  We are reared on the very violent sport of American football and don't really embrace the concept of a well-played match that is lost.  So often in football/soccer, excellent plays don't result in points and fans learn to appreciate good play that is not rewarded.  Winning is everything here.  I don't think that necessarily translates well to golf.  And, I know, European football has hooligans and fascists and whatnot, but I still stand by the above view. 

You can't include hooligans simply as an afterthought. These are some of the most violent, evil people in all of sports. And in the U.S., watching folks get trampled to death by massive swells of feverish spectators just doesn't happen. I would say that based on mortality rates, European fans are far more frenzied and rabid than those in the U.S.

As for violence in the sports themselves, I would put rugby and hurling against any U.S. sport in terms of aggression. I played rugby in college, and I saw injuries in that sport that were every bit as gruesome as those I saw in football games.

And finally, I don't think low scoring has anything to do with it either. Most baseball fans are very appreciative of a 1-0 pitchers duel. And it's not like hockey is often a 6-5 affair.

I don't mean to nitpic, I just don't see a difference between Ryder Cup fans in the U.S. versus the fans in Europe. There are always a few drunks who make asses out of themselves. It would be nice if everyone with a ticket followed accepted golf etiquette, but RC history shows that isn't going to happen.

[Tom Huckaby]

Do the Euros really sing fun songs at the Ryder Cup?  I haven't heard any... all I've ever heard is the ole ole ole ole, which certainly can't be held out as anything better that USA USA USA.

Now if you want to take this to other sports, then oh yes do they have us beat... there is NOTHING comparable in US sports to the songs sung at EPL (and other) football games.  The creativity and wit is often mind-boggling.  Those who have been there, or heard it, know.

In any case, when it comes to fan behavior, my impression is this:

The worst Euros are worse than the worst Americans.  We have yet to require fences between our fans or have entire rooting sections (or nations) banned from away games.

The average Euro is better than the average American, for exactly the reason Tim P. states - they do appreciate a match well played and lost far better than we do.

The best are equal.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Dan and Tom,

Too funny on the bad behavoir mentions for soccer.  I'm always reminded of Jim Rome who is not a big soccer fan himself and his famous quote:

"Soccer is not a sport, its a way to die!!"

After seeing multiple stampedes and people getting trompled to death, that seems pretty brutal as I can't recall that ever happening here in the states.

The only comparison here is going to a Oakland Raider game, but even there they have better sense to just rough you up a bit, instead of making you take a dirt nap.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen - good call re Raiders - our closest equivalent to soccer hooligans.

The point remains their fans have yet to be banned from attending away games, something that has occurred fairly regularly for England and other soccer fans.

They take their rooting to a fine art.

 

[Tim Pitner]

Kalen and Dan,

I don't mean to unnecessarily elevate the European sports fan or treat hooliganism as an afterthought (although my understanding is that it's a particularly English phenomenon), I just do believe that American golf fans, when asked to cheer like pro or college football fans, struggle with how to do that without crossing the line.  Take Brookline, for example.  Some of the things said to the Europeans then and especially to Monty were way beyond the pale.  That was true at Bethpage also to Garcia in a non-Ryder Cup setting.  Maybe that happens when U.S. golfers play in Europe, but I haven't heard that.  American golfers tend to say how knowledgeable and courteous the fans are at the Open Championship. 

[Andy Hughes]

What would Byron Nelson say if he were Ryder Cup captain?

[RJ_Daley]

Huck, in my mind their is a distinction between contact sports that are played with a physical agression, and a match of golf skills of relative physicality, and as much contemplative as athletic.  You are quite correct, IMO about the rabid and insane nature of various world soccer and other sport violence.  Rivalry, and fan active participation are traditions and acceptable to a reasoned level in those contact sports.  No one expects people to give a polite golf applaud at a hockey or football game.  But that isn't the case and never was with golf.

I think golf has a tradition, probably more respected as a tradition in Europe; yet they also have their idiot media, and juvenile fans (streakers, and those observed at Opens and Ryders)  No side has a monopoly on idiots.  But, why are they idiots, and who pays them any attention?  I think it is the media loves a streaker to run across the 18th at the height of the competition, or the ginned up fans chanting USA or OLE.  Then, they feed off all the rivalry, controversy and endless outrage and indignation that such a thing happens to generate something to cover and write or televise.  

[Tom Birkert]

Just a quick one here to correct people regarding hooligans / facists etc at English football matches. I've attended more than 500 games myself and not once have I seen major trouble occur. Of course if you want to find violence and have a fight then I'm sure you can, but for 99% of those who go to football there is never any trouble, regardless of the un-PC banter that is commonplace, and as Mr Huckaby confirms, very funny. The notion of a football match being an unsafe activity to go and watch is one of the most outdated arround your side of the Pond.

That said, for the isolated hooligan incidents that take place, winning a title over here never results in a street riot celebration, a non-sequitur I've never managed to figure out. You've won the title, why have a riot to celebrate?!

I think lawyers would get involved if some of the songs that I hear at football over here were sung in the US (prime example yesterday when a newspaper revealed that a Man Utd player's girlfriend was actually a prostitute, he was greeted with a chorus of "How much does your girlfriend charge?").

Your mission should be to come up with some creative songs for the US team and players.

[Tom Huckaby]

Dick - I concur with all you say; my point just does remains that such behavior has become acceptable at the Ryder Cup and it occurs on both sides of the pond.

Tom - of course you know best re UK football, I have sadly yet to attend a match.  My point there however wasn't that the average game is unsafe to attend - heck, Highbury wasn't known as the Library because it was unsafe, right?  No, my point was that AT THEIR WORST, the UK hooligan trumps the  US Raider fan.  Thankfully on both sides, the worst of the worst are pretty few.

I do love the songs from UK football, for sure.  My god some of them crack me up.... And you're right, we don't have the equivalent here - for sure when it comes to our national team events.  But for individual college / pro teams, we don't lack for creativity.  The chants and such at college football games particularly get quite creative... and nasty.

TH

[John Mayhugh]

Do the Euros really sing fun songs at the Ryder Cup?  I haven't heard any... all I've ever heard is the ole ole ole ole, which certainly can't be held out as anything better that USA USA USA.

One of my Ryder Cup highlights was sitting in the grandstand behind the first tee before the matches started on both Friday & Monday.  There was a lot of friendly back & forth between a nice-sized group of European fans and the Americans.  The Euro supporters sang quite a few different songs including some silly made-up ones to honor certain players as they came to the tee.  Several were to the tune of "winter wonderland" and referred to walking a "Poulter wonderland."

The best was probably one for Angel-Jimenez sung to the tune of Yellow Submarine:
"Miguel has got a great ponytail"
"A great ponytail
"A great ponytail"

There was a fair bit of the ole ole ole cheer going on. On Friday, someone responded with a "soccer sucks" chant that got good laughs from everyone.  When someone tried the same thing on Sunday, the Euros were prepared with a new song in response, saying "We play football with our feet, do-da, do-da" over and over.  Everyone there loved it.

Their fans certainly were a highlight of the Ryder Cup experience. 

[Sean_A]

Just a quick one here to correct people regarding hooligans / facists etc at English football matches. I've attended more than 500 games myself and not once have I seen major trouble occur. Of course if you want to find violence and have a fight then I'm sure you can, but for 99% of those who go to football there is never any trouble, regardless of the un-PC banter that is commonplace, and as Mr Huckaby confirms, very funny. The notion of a football match being an unsafe activity to go and watch is one of the most outdated arround your side of the Pond.

That said, for the isolated hooligan incidents that take place, winning a title over here never results in a street riot celebration, a non-sequitur I've never managed to figure out. You've won the title, why have a riot to celebrate?!

I think lawyers would get involved if some of the songs that I hear at football over here were sung in the US (prime example yesterday when a newspaper revealed that a Man Utd player's girlfriend was actually a prostitute, he was greeted with a chorus of "How much does your girlfriend charge?").

Your mission should be to come up with some creative songs for the US team and players.

Tom

I have only been to a dozen or so proper football matches and I have to say I felt distinctly nervous at seeing hordes of riot police on horseback - its something I am not used to seeing at sporting events - mind you the worst of this sort of presence was at Manchester!  Something must go on at times or the police wouldn't be so well represented.  Plus, all those lads getting busted in Europe can't be innocent.  Reputations are hard lost, but also hard won.

Ciao

[Tom Huckaby]

John M - many thanks - darn it, they need to show THAT stuff on TV!

And I have zero doubt that while the Americans try hard, the Euros win these battles of wits.  They do have far more experience.

 

[Joe Bausch]

Don't serve alcohol ANYWHERE at the Ryder Cup and I bet the behavior improves by leaps and bounds.  But this would be a very difficult sell.  Very.

The only way I could see it happening is if Tiger comes out in support of it, then other players jump on board, and they refuse to play unless EtOH is banned.

[Sean Leary]

I also wonder at an event like the Ryder Cup how many TRUE golf fans are there that truly understand the etiquette of the game. Obviously there is a large corporate contingent and with that comes a lot of sports fans rather than real golfers.

Just a thought.

[Mike Hendren]

I remain amused at the European fascination with a game where a great defensive strategy consists of forming a straight line and grabbing your crotch.  A hillbilly would NEVER do that in public.

Favorite cheer of the weekend:

Bobby sock, knee socks, nylon hose
Here comes Europe, hold your nose.

Bogey

[John Kavanaugh]

At a time when golf is near financial bankruptcy with many courses closing and few being built, membership rosters thinning and public tee sheets empty it seems foolish to come out against people having fun at the expense of millionaire professional golfers.  It's time for golfers to get their sticks out of the basement, out of the trunks of their cars and for some, out of their ass.  Can anyone tell me when in history golf became a quiet sport and why?  The best I can figure is that back in the day the good boys at St. Andrews liked to sneak out for a round during Sunday mass and didn't want to get caught.  Sadly, someone let out a curse filled rant and golf was banned on Sunday all together.  Golfers remained quiet on the other six days out of fear for losing another day.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Golf is not a contact sport. It also has a defined set of Rules and a simple ETIQUETTE which is required to be followed if you want to play golf.

My original post was based upon a newspaper article which I did not want to believe.  I don’t care who started it or which side of the pond has caused the greatest insults, it should have been stopped by now. The Ryder Cup is all about playing golf and is not a circus. Why the authorities tolerate this type of behaviour is beyond me, its televised all around the world and the message is clear that this is acceptable – to me this is far from acceptable. This type of behaviour is not part of our sport nor should it be seen on a golf course.

There is just no excuse – but yet again the responsibility actually rests with our Governing Bodies who as usual seem unwilling to act in protecting the game of Golf. Just how hard is it to tell both sides that this sort of behaviour is not acceptable. What sort of message are we sending out to the world and of course to the youngsters?