Wm. Flynn's interupted fairways

[Jeff_Mingay]

Perhaps Wayne Morrison and Tom Paul can touch on this subject...

I was going through files last night and stumbled upon William Flynn's mid-1920s hole sketches for Manor Country Club, in suburban Washington DC. It struck me (again) that, at nearly every hole, the fairway ends at 250 yards off the back tee, then continues into the greens following a short interuption of rough... think Pine Valley.

I've seen Flynn's plans for other courses, which feature the same type of interupted fairway concept.

I'm familiar with the Manor property and can say, there are no features at many of the holes which dictate this type of interupted fairway design. This said, what was Flynn's reasoning for this?

Curious,

[Mike_Cirba]

I imagine it was a way to combat length.

Interestingly, Jim Engh has a couple of interrupted fairways at True North in MI.   I'm not sure how I feel about them, but they are certainly a factor to consider.

[Adam Clayman]

Bayonnes interrupted fairways were interesting. I surely was suckered into thinking there would be fairway on 16 between the 190 and 40 yard range while I was in the right fairway bunker. Since the ground sloped away, it was blind. My only option was to try and hit a shot out sideways leaving a considerable third, or, try the 20-1 shot of flying it out of the bunker some 160 yards. 

[Mark_Fine]

Jeff,
Flynn drew plans for many interupted fairways.  Some were built and some were not.  I beleive his inspiration came from his work at Pine Valley.  Lehigh CC for example has one on hole #11.  Mike suggested it was a way to combat length.  That could be true at times but I think there were other reasons rather than to just force long hitters to gear back.  One reason was terrain, Lehigh's #11 is an example.  It would be tough to grow fairway height grass on that slope.  Another reason was to minimize water usage (limit the amount of maintained turf).  Another might have been aesthetics.  A combination of all of these factored into the reasoning.  At Cherry Hills for example, Flynn's plans called for several interupted fairways.  Very early photos and aerials we discovered show no evidence that they were maintained that way.  If they were, it was not for very long.  In our master plan, we did not call for them to be restored (we didn't think Flynn wanted half the golfers to be forced to lay up on numerous holes because the fairway ran out).  That was not Flynn's intention and with limited room to extend tees they didn't make sense.  They were likely originally designed out there with water consumption in mind.  No longer an issue.  
Mark

[Jeff_Mingay]

Mike,

I wonder if it had something to do with forcing the longest hitters to lay back off the tee. This seems very contrived to my way of thinking; especially considering a majority of holes, at Manor, are cut off at 250 yards. It's 250 yards off the back tee, consistently. 

[Jeff_Mingay]

Mark,

Reduction of mowing and watering requirements makes sense. But, still, I presume that when the fairways of the 1920s and 30s era were baked-out during the summer, the longest hitters were consistently cut-off... at least at Manor where, again, the fairway interuption occurs at 250 yards, hole after hole.

Seems strange.

[Mark_Fine]

Jeff,
Maybe someone knows, but was that proposed interupted fairway at Manor CC ever maintained that way?  My guess is maybe to start, but then it soon would have been modified and likely eliminated.  I've played almost every Flynn course out there that still remains and not too many have interupted fairways that are broken up with rough purely to throttle back long hitters.  If there is separation (like I mentioned on #11 at Lehigh) there are usually other reasons for it.  Of course if I really think back through all his courses, there are probably a few exceptions. 

Personally, I've always hated rough that bisects a fairway for seemingly no other reason than to dictate play.  Remember #17 at Valderrama   

[Jeff_Mingay]

Mark,

I don't know if the fairways at Manor were ever maintained in this interupted fashion. Craig Disher used to be a member there. Maybe he knows.

Again, as far as I can tell, the topography at Manor doesn't dictate these interupted fairways. It just seems like a contrived concept to me.

I'm not surprised Flynn's courses don't feature interupted fairways these days. I'm not a big fan of this concept either.

[TEPaul]

Jeff:

I think Mark Fine basically has it right but there may've been a bit more.

Flynn did get into this idea of "interrupted fairways" and he actually advertized it a time or two and it's named in those ads. I can't remember if he called them "Interrupted fairways" or something else which was essentially the same thing. (Sometimes we call them "Separated fairways").

Mark is right that we see it or them more on some of his plans rather than the way that course or those courses were built. Wayne will remember but I think it was one of his Mid-Atlantic courses he actually advertized the idea (it might have been his Army/Navy course).

We are convinced that the idea came from his exposure to and work at Pine Valley (boty Toomey and Flynn were actually members of PV).

Some courses like Kittansett had them and he did a couple of hole iterations for Shinnecock that had them, including the present 15th but they were not built that way at Shinnecock.

I believe the reason they were either not built as much as they might've been or were removed after a while such as at Kittansett was not because good players had to gear down with them but that the weaker players, certainly including women, could not deal with them because a number of them by Flynn were no different from the famous "Hell's Half Acre" on #7 at PV that was and is 100 acres across. Asking women and weaker golfers back then (or perhaps even today) to deal with a forced 100 yard carry at a minimum with no optional way of getting around it is going to be inherently unpopular with some, as you can imagine. We think those were the golfers they became unpopular with and basically the resaon they were either not built or were removed and the old time super, Lenny Blodgett, at Kittansett, at least, said as much.

Hope this helps answer your question.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom,

Thanks. The effect these interupted fairways have on weaker players is a great point, and something I also thought about when reviewing the Manor plans last night.

I think we all can agree this is not the greatest idea, in general; which, again, is why I find it so strange that Flynn used this concept -- at least on paper -- so often.

Interesting.

[Thomas MacWood]

Flynn said there were three problems that an architect must develop in order to maximize character and variety. They are as follows, in order of importance:
1. Accuracy
2. Carry
3. Length

In creating situations of carry Flynn discussed the advantages of the diagonal bunker, which allows the golfer to chose how much he will bite off (this feature in effect interupts the fairway). The interupted fairway was another means for Flynn to introduce carry on certain holes. In most cases his interuptions occurs where there is broken ground or a natural dip in the ground. Flynn said, "Natural topographical features should always be developed in presenting promblems in the play. As a matter of fact such features are much more to be desired than man made tests for they are generally more attractive."

These features were also economical - less fairway to maintain (less water) and less mowing on steeper grades.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Thanks. The effect these interupted fairways have on weaker players is a great point, and something I also thought about when reviewing the Manor plans last night.
I think we all can agree this is not the greatest idea, in general; which, again, is why I find it so strange that Flynn used this concept -- at least on paper -- so often.
Interesting."


Jeff:

Please don't assume that Flynn tended to do things in the same way for every client and every project because he most definitely did not and that we surely can prove from his own writing; the best of it on this subject being in the articles he wrote for the USGA Green Section Bulletin.

If a client wanted a full-blown championship style course vs something not so challenging Flynn did say a good deal of that was due to different bunkering or bunker schemes he could use, particularly given some time in play to consider it.

If you want to see that article by him on that specific subject for a client of yours or whatever, we will make it available to you or point you to it.


Mr. MacWood, why don't you begin to inch back to the shallow end of the pool where you belong? You know the part some call the "wading pool". I don't think any of us want to see you get over your head again on another subject in less than a week. You actually serve a purpose on here as an off-the-wall counterpoint. Even I don't want to see you drown. 

[mike_malone]

 The plans for Rolling Green show the interrupted fairway intended for two holes; both short 5's. The interruption was at around 150 yards, though , indicating that the intent was toaffect the layup rather than the tee shot.

[Craig Disher]

Jeff,
I pulled out the old drawings (I know the property pretty well and am still amazed every time I look at them) and I think there were some natural features on some holes that he used to define the fairway interruptions. The 3rd fairway ran out at 250 where a plateau following one uphill and preceding another ends. The limit of the 7th was set by the valley and stream that begins at about 275 yards. It's similar to the 9th which has its fairway ending just before the climb to the green. Fairways at 10, 12 and 18 also had similar features. As for the other holes, it could be that he was just trying to keep a consistent look on the course - and perhaps saving on maintenance. The consistent distance of 250 is a little misleading since so many of the holes, especially on the front 9, played over hilly terrain.

It just knocks me down when I look at the plan for #5 - it would have been an architectural showpiece.

[Willie_Dow]

Tom Paul

The seventh hole at Kittansett still has an interupted fairway, out about 300 yards from the back tee.  As I remember the hole back in the 1940's it played as a bottle hole, with the rough coming in like the neck of a bottle.

It was a great challenge to drive into the neck and get home in two.  One of my favorite holes in all of golf.

Do any of the Flynn drawings show it as a bottle hole, or was this something Ray Dennehy came up with ?

[wsmorrison]

Not much to add with Tom Paul and Mark Fine's comments.

Cascades restored a couple of the interrupted fairways (2 and 5).  Kittansett still has them.  I think it is pretty certain that  Flynn liked the concept of interrupted fairways to prevent topped shots from running very far on second shots and approach shots, similar to beginning the fairways at different distances from tees.  A fine example, as Mike Malone alluded to, is the 7th at Rolling Green.  Today the second fairway begins right after the creek that crosses the fairway.  Flynn meant for the second fairway to start 30-60 yards from the first fairway, depending upon the line of play.  The best line of play is on the right, where the largest separation exists.





#5 at Manor

[wsmorrison]

Tom Paul

The seventh hole at Kittansett still has an interupted fairway, out about 300 yards from the back tee.  As I remember the hole back in the 1940's it played as a bottle hole, with the rough coming in like the neck of a bottle.

It was a great challenge to drive into the neck and get home in two.  One of my favorite holes in all of golf.

Do any of the Flynn drawings show it as a bottle hole, or was this something Ray Dennehy came up with ?

Flynn's 7th hole design included a pile of stones (2-6 feet high), which significantly narrowed the playing corridor.  As you can see in the drawing, there was quite a lot of rough, about 80-90 yards, separating the fairways.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Craig,

I vividly recall walking Manor with Flynn's drawings in hand, and thinking, man... this could be so good. My recollections of his possible reasons for designing interupted fairways there isn't as clear; but, I'm certain there were a few holes where there was no good reason to do so.

Nonetheless, Manor could have been a very interesting restorative-based project. Oh well...

Wayne,

Your point about preventing topped second shots from running too far seems to support at least one reason why these interupted fairways cease to exist in most cases 

[DMoriarty]

Sounds like these things were the functional equivalent of second shot cop bunkers.   Punish the topped shot and the poor golfer.  Am I wrong? 

[Thomas MacWood]

Not much to add with Tom Paul and Mark Fine's comments.

Cascades restored a couple of the interrupted fairways (2 and 5).  Kittansett still has them.  I think it is pretty certain that  Flynn liked the concept of interrupted fairways to prevent topped shots from running very far on second shots and approach shots, similar to beginning the fairways at different distances from tees.  A fine example, as Mike Malone alluded to, is the 7th at Rolling Green.  Today the second fairway begins right after the creek that crosses the fairway.  Flynn meant for the second fairway to start 30-60 yards from the first fairway, depending upon the line of play.  The best line of play is on the right, where the largest separation exists.





#5 at Manor

Wayne
Did Flynn write about the concept of the interupted fairway; did he write something that led you to believe he liked the concept because it prevent topped shots from running very far on second shots?

Its interesting the two holes you chose have streams crossing the fairway. Wouldn't a topped shot been penalized either way?

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

I didn't say that interrupted fairways were planned only for topped or poorly hit shots.  I saw no need to add to what Tom Paul and Mark Fine submitted.

If you ever visit Rolling Green, you will come to discover that the ground leading up the stream and the narrowness of the stream make topping a shot over the stream a very likely occurrence from various distances from the stream.  What explanation do you have for the second fairway starting 30 yards or more beyond the stream?  The second fairway begins a mere 110 yards from the landing area indicated on the drawing.  In your consideration, you wouldn't know it from a drawing, the tee shot is some 80' above the landing area.

I could post many more drawings showing the use of interrupted fairways.  I posted the ones I did for a reason, even if it escapes you.  Craig discussed the 5th at Manor, so it was posted for that reason.  The 7th at Rolling Green is an excellent example with the distances related to the line of play, which is why I posted it.  Bill Dow asked about the 7th at Kittansett, so I posted that.  As you can see, I posted three drawings, not two.  The third drawing of the 7th at Kittansett has no stream.  So it isn't that interesting at all, unless you choose to make it interesting. 

Go over to Mike Hurdzan's office and take a look at hundreds of other examples where there are no streams.  Let's hear your interpretation.  You've seen a few Flynn courses including the Cascades.  You should be familiar enough with the 2nd and 5th holes to surmise why those two were planned with interrupted fairways, and have them once again.

You may have missed one of my points.  Why do you think some architects start fairways at different distances from the tee?  Specifically, why do you think some classic era architects did it?  What explanations do you have for Flynn designing that way?

[Thomas MacWood]

Wayne
That was done for practical reasons as much as anything. At one time fairways extended all the way to the tee. There is an old photo of Sunningdale that is good illustration of this practice. It was much more economical and practical to begin the fairway 75 or 125 yards from the tee. The precise distance the fairway begins often coincides with some physical feature of the land.

I understand there are many examples without streams, which why I thought it was strange you used the examples you used, especially when emphasizing the topped shot. No worries, just curious.

To your knowledge did Flynn ever write about the topped shot?

In some cases Flynn placed bunker in the gaps, a la PVGC. I've seen examples of this at Boca Raton and Cherry Hills. But in many other cases he did not, it was just an unmowed section. I think this was done partially to put some doubt in the golfers mind, you're not quite sure what your line should be because you don't have bunker giving some depth perception or directional help. This is especially true on relatively flat land.