[Phil_the_Author]

Here we go again... the 13th at Valhalla can have a 290-yard tee so let's make it a driveable par-4...

How can anyone justify this with the green complex this hole has?

Really then, what qualities should a par-4 have that make it be good when at a driveable distance?

One quality at a time only....

[Tom_Doak]

A narrow entrance to the green.

[Tim Bert]

Interesting green with a lot of movement

[Bryan Izatt]

That each tee block be of a length that makes it drivable for the demographic playing that tee.  Using your example of Valhalla at 290 yards for pros.  Then 1 up tee at 260 yards, 2 up tee at 230 yards and a forward tee at 150 yards.

[Bryan Izatt]

On Tom's point - that there is some kind of run up option, narrow or otherwise.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

How important would you say the orientation of the green is in deciding the nature of the narrow opening. I have in mind the 10th at Westchester where a straight ball will find its way on while at Riviera, and never having played it I can only go by photos and TV, but isn't the player required to move the ball in order for it to gain the putting surface to his advantage?   

[Phil McDade]

The prospect of something bad happening; some element of risk that brings par, even bogey, into play.

[Jason Pyle]

Narrow Green entrance for sure.  While I hate the 14th on Trails (less due to philosophy and more execution and severity), that sort of philosophy is appropriate for short driveable par 4s.  Also like 14, a green with a lot of slope bordering it makes a birdie, even if you do hit a good shot but not a perfect one, anything but a foregone conclusion.  

Also if the topography doesn't allow the above, some trouble well short of the green (be it a pot bunker that the fairway funnels towards, shelves or severe humps and bumpse, or maybe a very narrow landing area) gives challenge to those that choose to play extremely conservative on these types of holes.  There's got to be options but I think short par 4s that allows mindless hybrids/irons and then a gap wedge approach don't put enough value on par.  

[Anthony Fowler]

There's got to be options but I think short par 4s that allows mindless hybrids/irons and then a gap wedge approach don't put enough value on par.  

Can you explain this "value on par" concept?  I'm not sure I understand what you mean or why this is important.

I do think, and maybe we are in agreement, that none of the options offered by this type of hole should be too easy.  There should be some incentive to take a chance.  There should be no obvious dominant strategy.

[Tim Gavrich]

Here we go again... the 13th at Valhalla can have a 290-yard tee so let's make it a driveable par-4...

How can anyone justify this with the green complex this hole has?

Really then, what qualities should a par-4 have that make it be good when at a driveable distance?

One quality at a time only....

I really don't see anyone going for the 13th green at Valhalla.  The target is tiny and surrounded by water; the risk outweighs the reward big-time, I'd think.

Isn't the 4th hole in the 370 yard range?  Why not move the tees up on that hole?  It'd be more reasonable as a drivable par 4, IMO.

[Ian_L]

Tim, what about in fourball, if your partner hits a perfect layup?  You might take a chance then, wouldn't you?

[Matt_Ward]

Simple answer --

The possibility of making a two is indeed possible -- not remote. This would prompt players to really consider going for it. If birdie needs to be secured then a lay-up situation will be the more likely route. Drivable par-4's give the possibility -- even if its slim -- of making that eagle possible. See examples with the likes of Black Mesa's 7th and 14th holes.

Also ...

The possibility of making DB or more is also indeed possible -- not remote.

[David_Elvins]

A narrow entrance to the green.

2nd at st andrews beach???

[David_Elvins]

Enough interesting features to make it also a great drive/pitch hole for players who cant drive the green or when the wind doenst allow the green to be driven.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tim,

You noted, "I really don't see anyone going for the 13th green at Valhalla.  The target is tiny and surrounded by water; the risk outweighs the reward big-time, I'd think..."

It is the idea that the hole will be played from the 290-yard range tot tempt guys to try driving it that inspired this thread.

I'm sorry, but anyone trying to drive the hole will have to fly it to the putting surface and hold it... That they think anyone would actually attempt this is more ludicrous than someone actually trying to...

[Ian_L]

I heard it will play as a 267-yarder on the second day.

[Tim Bert]

The articles I've read state that Holmes drove the green from the 350 tee in the practice round.  Why wouldn't some of these guys go for it in a fourball on Thursday or Friday?  Put one guy out there hitting wedge in and have the big hitter swing away. 

I agree that this hole is not indicative of what makes a good driving hole for most of us, but these guys are playing a different game.  If they really move it up to 267, then Holmes will probably be hitting a 5 wood or a 4 iron or something like that.  If he can stick the driver to 15 feet from 350 on that tiny green, why wouldn't he try it from 80 yards closer?

[Sean_A]

If a driveable par 4 is gonna be about power it has to have a viable layup opportunity which can lead to a birdie without pulling off an all world shot.  This element gives the cautious player an opportunity to get into the more aggressive player's head - much like getting up and down for halves does.

Generally, I prefer driveable par 4s which are really par 3s.  More people can utilize the options on offer and this makes folks feel good.  There is nothing wrong with that!

Ciao

[Tony Ristola]

Some form of treachery without stupidity.

[Jon Wiggett]

The punishment for not making it has got to be probable loss of birdie set against certain birdie possible eagle for pulling the shot off. It is very important however that the shot is inviting enough to make the player want to go for it round after round.

[Matthew Mollica]

Good short par fours often provide not only the tantilysing prospect of driving the green, but also the heavy sense that one has chickened out in the act of playing the safe tee shot leaving a standard lay-up.

The brave / foolardy decision to go for it, followed by a poor drive should see a somewhat unpleasant outcome, but not necessarily a certain triple bogey.

MM

[Justin Ryan]

Really then, what qualities should a par-4 have that make it be good when at a driveable distance?

One quality at a time only....

Temptation

[Jeff_Mingay]

I think there simply has to be a reasonable chance of actually driving the green. Otherwise, no one will try for it. This hole at Valhalla seems like there's no "reasonable" chance of holding the green from 290 yards away. Though, I'm sure I'm wrong considering the abilities of the world's best golfers.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff,

You might recall our tour of Franklin Hills with Tom Gray. I recall him saying that he has driven that little short par 4 14th with its postage stamp green.  That always stunned me, but with the distance some of these guys drive it, 290 might allow them to tee it up and hit "a shorty" kind of high and dropping right on the green.  Plus, tour pros tell me there is only about yards of roll on their typical drives anyway, so holding the green is possible.

[Philippe Binette]

one word:  TEMPTATION

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