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Josh Smith

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Great individual hole design as it relates to Prevailing wind
« on: September 17, 2008, 02:47:02 PM »
Which holes really stand out in your mind as GREAT given a consistently strong prevailing wind?


Josh

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Great individual hole design as it relates to Prevailing wind
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2008, 02:50:25 PM »
11th TOC whatever the wind.

Phil Benedict

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Re: Great individual hole design as it relates to Prevailing wind
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2008, 03:05:50 PM »
Without mentioning any particular holes, I think the challenge is greatest when a hole doglegs towards the prevailing wind (eg left-to-right crosswind on a dogleg left).  It can be a real bitch to drive the ball on those sorts of holes and the reward for shaping your drive correctly can be huge.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Great individual hole design as it relates to Prevailing wind
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2008, 11:15:07 PM »
Phil:

I agree that's the greatest challenge, but to me it's also the stupidest kind of hole design to design a hole counter to a strong prevailing wind.  I learned that from Ben Crenshaw, incidentally.  If you can think of a Coore & Crenshaw hole which doglegs left with the wind from left to right, call me.

Mark:

Prevailing wind at The Old Course is into you and from the left on #11.  God is it hard under those conditions.  We have been sure to set the hole the same way for Old Macdonald.

Jim Nugent

Re: Great individual hole design as it relates to Prevailing wind
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2008, 12:00:27 AM »


Prevailing wind at The Old Course is into you and from the left on #11.  God is it hard under those conditions.  We have been sure to set the hole the same way for Old Macdonald.

Tom, do you try to set up a Redan hole with the wind in mind?  Are they generally easier with the wind behind you? 

Ian_L

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Re: Great individual hole design as it relates to Prevailing wind
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2008, 12:12:39 AM »
I like the 13th at Lahinch.  It's driveable with little trouble (bunkers on the left aren't visible from the tee, but with the wind in your face and that knob, it's darn tough to hit the green just 279 yards away.

Sean_A

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Re: Great individual hole design as it relates to Prevailing wind New
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2008, 03:52:11 AM »
Without mentioning any particular holes, I think the challenge is greatest when a hole doglegs towards the prevailing wind (eg left-to-right crosswind on a dogleg left).  It can be a real bitch to drive the ball on those sorts of holes and the reward for shaping your drive correctly can be huge.

Phil

I don't have a problem with this sort of design so long as the penalty is at the green.  In other words, there has to be plenty of room to miss it right.  Many of the examples of this type of hole have a dead zone right and that is the sort of design I can't understand. 

To a large extent, though the wind isn't an issue, the same problem happens with doglegs against the lay of the land.  Take Hoylake's 10th and 12th holes.  Both of these bastards turn against the land and both have a harsh bunkering on the outside of the leg.  IMO, both are much better holes from forward tees because at least there is the option of scooting one over the inside left corner of the leg.  From further back the only sensible option is to layup.  In a way, its a pity these holes come so close together because they wouldn't stand out so much as being very harsh.  Anyway, one harsh hole like this is fine and #12 is a DOOZY!

Having said all that, the 3rd at Pennard turns sharply against the prevailing wind.  While not a stunner, the hole does work because the carry over the turn is short enough to offer three distinct choices off the tee; aggressive over the corner, layup to or short of the corner, or shapping the tee shot left around or to the corner. 

Ciao

« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 03:11:55 AM by Sean Arble »
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Great individual hole design as it relates to Prevailing wind
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2008, 08:10:43 AM »
Phil,

Like Tom, I have learned from the Tour Pros I know that they are most comfortable on a hole that bends with the wind.  As Jim Colbert said to me once, "I got a left to right hole, I got a left to right wind and I got a left to right slope in the landing area.......Pards, I think I am going to hit a fade!"  Philosophically, I believe its better to align all the signals to create a shot and then reward the player who can hit that shot.   

I am not as fond of shots with "mixed signals" whereby the player has to guess how much to counteract a lot of different factors.  If the counterbalancing factors are all reasonable, that's fine every once in a while, and in fact, when matching a routing to the land and wind, it usually happens by necessity a few times a round.  (I guess CC are better routers than I)  I don't mind a few, because the wind does change in most locations - prevailing doesn't mean constant! 

From time to time, I see posts similar to yours suggesting that we ought to make things tougher for the good player.  I still believe the course is better if we reward them, rather than give them puzzles that in essence, equal out players via guess work over controlled skill.  Just MHO, but if you polled better players I think they would be pretty consistent on that issue.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Great individual hole design as it relates to Prevailing wind
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2008, 05:20:24 PM »
# 4, # 5, # 6, # 7, # 8, # 11, # 12, # 14, # 15, # 17 and # 18 at NGLA

There are a number of holes at Newport, Maidstone, Friar's Head, Atlantic, Westhampton that qualify as well

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Great individual hole design as it relates to Prevailing wind
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2008, 07:56:48 PM »
A couple of members from NSW GC may be able to offer assistance but I would have thought the prominent prevailing breeze is a NE ?

Either way the routing of 5-7 is superb in a N or S breeze as is 14 and 17.

I also find the approach to # 4 - particularly appealing in a NE - the green is slightly tilted toward the right and weak shots are repelled well off the green towards grassy hollows. 

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

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Re: Great individual hole design as it relates to Prevailing wind
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2008, 08:01:47 PM »
I think that #18 at Royal Porthcawl was a fantastic hole playing down hill, back towards the sea into a strong prevailing wind.  Couple that with the fact the green is situated with the seawall hard against the back edge, and it can be a little nerveracking trying to figure out what club to hit.  I just remember being about 150 yards out, choosing between a 5 and 4 iron and worried the latter would find lots of trouble.  O