[Jonathan Cummings]

I was lucky enough to recently participate in the Ren Cup at RCCC.  As I've done before (although for the life of me using gca's search function I couldn't find my previous posting) here are my personal rankings (using a GW scale)of the Doak courses.  JC


Pac Dunes         10
Barnbougle Dunes         9.5
Cape Kidnappers         9
Ballyneal            9
Sebonak            8.5
RCCC            8
(Atlantic City)         8
Apache Stronghold         8
Stonewall                         7.5
(Yeaman's Hall)         7
Lost Dunes         6.5
Stonewall - North                      6.5
Legends- Heathland      6
Beechtree         5.5
Stone Eagle         5
Black Forest         5
Tumble Creek         5
High Pointe         4.5
St Andrew's Beach         4
Riverfront            4
            
(Parentheses are redos)            

[Mike Sweeney]

J,

I am curious why you think Apache is so good on what I have assumed to be a site that is average at best and would appear to be not as good a site as some of the lower Doak listings. I have not seen Apache and have no opinion, just curious what worked there in your mind.

I liked Stonewall but I can't say it is better than Philly CC or the other Flynn's which Tom gives 7's.

I like Beechtree more than you and just played it last month. At least a 6.

ACCC is close to but not quite an 8. There is some plane jane stuff on the front where Tom put in some pretty bunkering, but it is pretty, not strategic. The back 9 ranks way up there on the fun scale.

Here is the Doak Scale:

http://www.linksmagazine.com/best_of_golf/features/the_doak_scale.aspx

[Jonathan Cummings]

Mike - hope all is well in the Big Apple!

I seem to pretty much stand alone in thinking AS is near, if not center-court, brilliant.  Cast aside the laconic management, the lackluster conditioning and the proximity to the that sad highway casino and what remains is a near unequaled desert routing that boasts length/finesse, variety, anticipation, ebbs and crescendos, classic tributes and just about everything that excites me as a golfer.

Tom D has always thought me off my rocker ( ) but to me AS tells a well-connected story, and as such is simply one of the best modern routings in the game.  Architecturally it's that good and a hidden testimony of what knowledgeable landscape architecture can do to turn a piece of land into a uplifting and inspiring golf story. 


J

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

What made you give Rock Creek an 8? I have a similar number to yours -- mine was no more than 8.5.

Be curious to your analysis of the course since you saw it a few times during your stay in Deer Lodge, MT.

In regards to AS - I like the course too but until it is able to achieve some sort of consistency in terms of its presentation then the actual design and shotmaking elements are nothing more than a supposition on the part of many people.

Curious to see that you don't have a round for Saguaro at We-Ko-Pa just yet.

One other thing -- I like ACCC but it's not an eight for me.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Matt - We-Ko-Pa??  What's that have to do with RGD??

Let me collect my thoughts on RCCC for a few days and give you a solidified opinion. 

My first sense of the place is not with the individual holes (I thought they were damn near all great) it was with the overall scale of the place.  It's largeness surprised me and was little unsettling - much like Colorado GC's size surprised me as compared to other C/C courses. 

Because of its newness RCCC has some greens that are so hard as to be almost unplayable.  I know this will change over the next few years.  I look forward to seeing the place again with firm but softer greens. 

I will say this.  The bowled collection areas on the greens where you could watch an approach move up a slope, reverse course and settle in a collection area, often near the pin was exciting and pure fun.

J

[Chris Kane]

St Andrew's Beach         4

You're a tough judge.

[Brian Cenci]

From what I've played (Pacific Dunes, Lost Dunes, High Pointe, Black Forest, Yeamans Hall) I think that your assessment of Lost Dunes is too low.  My opinion it's an 8 and would fit Doak's description of an 8.  Other than that I think you're close on the ones I've played.

[David_Elvins]

St Andrew's Beach         4

You're a tough judge.

I don't think he is necassarily tough.  Plenty of people would rte it similarly.  I would be interested if Jonathan could expand on his thoughts on St Andrews Beach though.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Brian - I can't speak for Tom but no course with a superhighway cutting through it is an 8.  Transplant LD in a serene setting and you have an argument but short of that it doesn't measure up to Tom's best.  JC

[jkinney]

Stone Eagle at 5 I don't understand at all. To me that means every desert course in the world is less than 5 on the Doak scale. IMO Stone Eagle is AT LEAST an 8.

[TX Golf]

Jonathan.... if that is the case than what would Oakmont receive in your eyes??

[Andy Troeger]

I would also put Lost Dunes at higher than a 6.5--probably closer to 7.5

[Bruce Leland]

I haven't played many of Tom's courses but I concur with Jonathan.....Apache is a great course from a GCA perspective  DESPITE its conditioning.  The bent must have been an experiment and it didn't work but I have yet to play it when the greens and tees weren't more than acceptable. 

Given 50,000 acres to work with, I think the routing and shot selection is invigorating and I have played it 30 times and it still holds its fascination for me.  I can't wait to play more of Toms courses because the sites and design strategy have only improved.

[Gene Greco]

    I must also join Jonathan and Bruce in my affection for Apache Stronghold and have always held it in high regard despite the scraggly fairways.

I enjoyed the course from start to finish and thought the greens to be especially superb in design and conditioning.

[Matt Kardash]

What I would like to know is if any architect worked on more outstanding sites than Tom Doak? At least 5 of those courses have all-world sites. And most of the others are pretty damn good too. Props to Tom for getting all these sites somehow.
I have never played one of Tom's courses...mainly because i don't live within 1000km of one,.But am I to beleive that there is a general concensus that at least 4 of his courses are at least 9's and probably 6 or 7 are at least 8's? If that's the case then I'm sure there aren't many architects who can compete with that resume.

[David Stamm]

Is Yeaman's a redo or resto?

[Brian Cenci]

Brian - I can't speak for Tom but no course with a superhighway cutting through it is an 8.  Transplant LD in a serene setting and you have an argument but short of that it doesn't measure up to Tom's best.  JC

By Tom's definition of an 8 I think it fits for Lost Dunes..."One of the very best courses in its region...worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout."  The drawback is the highway, that's it.

[Mark_F]

Barnbougle Dunes         9.5

9. An outstanding course—certainly one of the best in the world—with no weaknesses in regard to condition, length or poor holes.

That sure seems to mitigate against Barnbougle being a 9.5, either.

[Jon Spaulding]

Stone Eagle ain't no stinkin' 5.

[Chris Burgard]

While I really enjoyed Apache and it may be "one of the very best courses in its region", I don't think that I can put it in the realm of other 8s that I have played including North Berwick, Turnberry and Cruden Bay.

If Black Forest and High Pointe don't qualify as at least sixes (A very good course, definitely worth a game if you’re in town, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see. It shouldn’t disappoint you.), then I guess that I should quit driving 4 1/2 hours to play both.

It would save me alot of money in gas!

Cheers!
Chris

[Jonathan Cummings]

All - As I stated I am using a Golfweek scale not a Doak scale.  GW says that a 6.5 or higher is a modern top 100.  Tom doesn't use half scales. 

Robert - Oakmont is a 10.

Mark - I don't understand your post.

JC

[JWinick]

Jonathan:

I look forward to playing Lost Dunes in two weeks.  Reflexively, I suspect we may have some disagreement on Lost Dunes.  If a golf course loses points for I-94 bisecting it, should a golf course in a remote location lose points because of its inconvenient location?

I think this issue is good enough for a new subject. 

[Jonathan Cummings]

JW - I think you need to get out more.  Quiet remote locations, I've found, are far superior to noisy convienent locations.  JC

[Mark_F]

Mark - I don't understand your post.

Jonathan,


The quote in green is from Doak's own description of a 9.  Clearly the scale itself is flawed, since even RM and Dornoch have a hole or two you wouldn't particulary care if you missed.

Ditto Barnbougle, which has several - 2, 8, 10, 14,16 and 18 to some degree. And I still don't like 4...

[Mark_Fine]

Jonathan,
Is it fair to say that for the most part, your rankings reflect the quality of the site as much as quality of the course that was built there?  This may be a little bit of a stretch but if you rated the sites before the courses were built, you might end up with similar numbers (or at least expectations)

This is something to keep in mind when we evaluate the work of architects (what do they have to work with). 

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