Personal Doak Course rankings

[Philippe Binette]

There's no way High Pointe is a 4.5, it might be one of the most enjoyable course I've ever played.

Sporty holes, good set of greens, great routing.. OK the 18th is weird... though a precise 240 yard shot leaves you 225 over a pond to the green

[Mike_Cirba]

JC

Where's the love for High Pointe??

[Chris_Clouser]

What about Quail Crossing?   

So if average out Jonathan's rankings, that comes out to a 6.825.  I wonder where he would fall with other architects...

[John Shimp]

Tough to believe that Yeamans Hall should be that low in relation to the others

[Kalen Braley]

Brian - I can't speak for Tom but no course with a superhighway cutting through it is an 8.  Transplant LD in a serene setting and you have an argument but short of that it doesn't measure up to Tom's best.  JC

Jonathon,

Does this mean Oakmont is dogmeat, becuase it has a highway cutting thru the middle of it.

And SFGC must also be knocked down because it too has a major higway running next to it.

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan C:

Mea culpa on my mentioning We-Ko-Pa -- age can certainly impact memory !

Have to say that while I really like AS -- the issue for me is about getting turf conditions that really maximize the design elements present. I'm not expecting anything close to manicured to the max but having turf that's at best mediocre to even below that just doesn't really work wonders with me. It no different than the shape Bethpage Black was in years ago -- I loved the layout then but realized that it's inner soul could not come through without a serious upgrade. I see AS in the same light.

[Mike_Cirba]

I believe some of the confusion is coming from the assumption that Jonathan is using the "Doak Scale" for his scoring, when he is not...he is using the Golfweek scale which is markedly different in gradations and intent.

[TX Golf]

Jonathan,

I was getting at your point that it has a major highway running through it. You didn't seem to think that it should deserve a 10 with a highway running through it.

[John Kirk]

Let's add a third, though unbiased objection to the Stone Eagle rating of 5.  I thought Rock Creek and Stone Eagle were similar in many ways, and therefore believe they should be ranked approximately the same.

[Tim Leahy]

Stone Eagle at 5 I don't understand at all. To me that means every desert course in the world is less than 5 on the Doak scale. IMO Stone Eagle is AT LEAST an 8.

I am with you on Stone Eagle, at least a 7 if not an 8.

[Matt_Ward]

John K, Tim L:

Don't agree with you on the Stone Eagle v Rock Creek debate.

If you take just the par-4's alone -- Rock Creek wins convincingly. I see the combination of par-3 and par-5 holes at the Palm Desert layout also being nothing more than a draw with the Deer Lodge course.

I'm not in like mind agreement w Jonathan about his low number for Stone Eagle but I don't see the CA-based layout offering as many unique and challenging tee-to-green elements. On the green front I'll call them a wash but I think, in my heart of hearts, that Rock Creek also has the edge there as well.

Rock Creek goes a bit beyond what you see with Stone Eagle for me.

[John Kirk]

Matt,

I agree with your comments.  I am saying that the two courses have strong similarities, and the difference between the two is smaller than 5 vs. 8.  Much smaller.

I will have a chance to share a few feelings this afternoon, but I have to go away for a few hours.

[Willie_Dow]

David Stamm - Re: Yeamans Hall

  The words Dr Henry Terrie used in his Feature Interview in May 2001 were "restore and renovate".  There is mention of Tom's thoughts "I believe it would be nice to reintroduce some of Raynor's driving strategies back into the course, if it can be done in a way that it doesn't become a burden to the average member.  Certainly, the bunkers we are considering will come into play, and there will be some complaining - if not, there would be no point in building them.  Our goal is to choose the bunkers which will make the holes more diverse, and more interesting from day to day."

Pretty good thinking IMHO.

[Mike Hendren]

Jonathan,

Since you are utilizing the Golfweek criteria and The Honors Course is 11th on the Modern list with a 7.98 average score, am I correct in concluding that you believe Tom Doak has designed 6 of the 10 best golf courses constructed in the United States in the past 48 years?

Bogey

In the interest of disclosure I've only played Pacific Dunes (9 in my book), Ballyneal (an eight) and Tumble Creek (6).

[DMoriarty]

Jonathan,

Since you are utilizing the Golfweek criteria and The Honors Course is 11th on the Modern list with a 7.98 average score, am I correct in concluding that you believe Tom Doak has designed 6 of the 10 best golf courses constructed in the United States in the past 48 years?

Mike,

While I only measure golf courses by height, to be fair Jonathon's rating of RCCC and Apache Stronghold would both fall just out of the  top 10, as No. 10 is Muirfield Village at 8.10.   Same goes with Atlantic City, if it were really a "Modern" but isn't it some sort of renovation/restoration?

That leaves Pacific Dunes (10), Ballyneal (9.5), and Sebonack (8.5), which are GW rated at 2nd (9.26), 13th (7.91), and 14th (7.91), respectively.    So Jonathon's marks are pretty close to the consensus except for Ballyneal.  Speaking of which, if there are 12 modern courses clearly better than Ballyneal in the United States, I'll eat Shivas' scorecard. 

You gave Ballyneal an 8, so which dozen modern courses do you think are better? 

[Willie_Dow]

David

It is interesting to see a 7 on Yeamans ranking.  Doak in his "Confidential" concluded in 6/95 that "fixed up, Yeamans Hall would be terrific. 5.

He commented that the course was "ravaged" during the WW2.  The greens were shrunk and topdressed to the extent they were uninteresting.
The club let the citizens of Charleston play for a modest membership fee, which included parking behind the barn, and no use of the clubhouse.  It just didn't work.

Henry Terrie, Jr. was also a five year Board member of the New Hampshire Golf Association, and relieved my freshman english teacher at Dartmouth, Art Jensen.  He was very instrumental in getting the needed redo of the Hanover Country Club and incorporating the Ralph Barton 9 hole course  into the present layout.  Barton was a Dartmouth alumnus and associate in the partnership of Charles Blair Macdonald and Seth Raynor.

[Mike Hendren]

David,

Limited solely to the courses I've played, I'd put Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, Honors, TPC-Sawgrass, and perhaps (ducking under my desk) Spyglass ahead of Ballyneal among the moderns.  I'd probably drop Bandon Dunes to the 25 to 50 range. 

As you can see I don't mind a little manufacturing every now and then. 

I think Ballyneal is an outstanding golf course, but I will say this:  I didn't realize how great Sand Hills was until I played Ballyneal.

Mike

[Richard Choi]

Is anyone here interested in keeping track of GCA ratings?

Everyone can give "Doak Rating" on any course they have played and I can store and crunch the numbers so that we can have our own golf course guide.

We could either setup something here or I can create a Website for this.

Do you think this is a good idea?

[Jonathan Cummings]

Stone Eagle gets top marks for the most unwalkable, ill-suited-for-a-golf-course piece of land in RGD's portfolio.  TD did a fine job with a marginal site.  Architecturally, both RCCC and AS are light years ahead of SE.

Robert - I admit my inconsistencies.  Oakmont is a 10 even with the turnpike cutting through it - it's that good and I've played it a bunch.  I mark down SFGC because of all the road noise on the back nine.  Lost Dunes suffers more than SFGC.

Instead of numbers let me place the Doak course I have seen in groups.

Pac Dunes            Top 10
Barnbougle Dunes            Top 10
Cape Kidnappers            Top 25
Ballyneal               Top 25
Sebonak               Top 50
RCCC               Top 75
(Atlantic City)            Top 75
Apache Stronghold            Top 100
Stonewall               Top 100
(Yeaman's Hall)            Top 200
Lost Dunes            Top 200
Legends- Heathland         Top 200
Stonewall - North            Top 200
Beechtree            Top 200
Stone Eagle            Top 300
Black Forest            Top 300
Tumble Creek            Top 300
High Pointe            Top 500
St Andrew's Beach            Top 500
Riverfront               Top 500

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

If you truly believe ACCC is on par w Rock Creek then send me the water you are now drinking. I love the Jersey layout but it's merely a bystander to the aura and majesty of what Rock Creek offers. I respect your opinions but on that point you lost me.

Last point -- your grade on AS is based on potential. I like the layout a lot but the conditioning element (lack thereof) cannot be dismissed so quickly. Once the course has attained some level of consistency on that front then such a high placement is possible -- in my mind, not before that time.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Matt - I should probably delete AC and YH as they are both redos and just keep to the original RGD layouts.  The classic/modern issue obscures comparisons. 

Your statement about potential has merit.  When I evaluate a course I try to see that course (imagine if I have to) in good condition.  It helps reduce variables in a subjective evaluation.

BTW - I agree with most all you have written about RCCC.  You are arguing such fine points that I think you are mostly in violent agreement with others debating you.

J

[Andy Troeger]

David,

Limited solely to the courses I've played, I'd put Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, Honors, TPC-Sawgrass, and perhaps (ducking under my desk) Spyglass ahead of Ballyneal among the moderns.  I'd probably drop Bandon Dunes to the 25 to 50 range. 

As you can see I don't mind a little manufacturing every now and then. 

I think Ballyneal is an outstanding golf course, but I will say this:  I didn't realize how great Sand Hills was until I played Ballyneal.

Mike

Mike,
I agree with you that Ballyneal is an outstanding golf course. I also agree that I'd put TPC Sawgrass and Spyglass higher. Manufacturing doesn't bother me in the slightest if its done well and something fun and interesting is created. I'd probably give Lost Dunes and Ballyneal pretty similar ratings too for what that's worth.

[Adam_Messix]

I think you all are being a little rough regarding Stone Eagle.  What Doak did there is nothing short of amazing, that site had to be exceptionally difficult to work with.  There are number of really interesting golf holes and the routing somehow works.  I would say it's a 7.

Bill D--

I think the Yeamans Hall that was originally rated a 5 by Doak and what's there now is night and day.  They've done a great job and it's always a thrill to visit. 

Quail Crossing is a very nice course on a decent site that had a major issue with those high tension powers lines going through it and the surrounding housing development.  It's not the first Doak course I would take people to, but it was a fun place to visit for a late afternoon round and it's close to VN. 

[John Kirk]

Let me postulate the following:

1.  Tom Doak and his associates are in their prime, and have been for at least the last five years.

2.  Tom puts maximum effort into each project.  Together with his talented assocaites and shapers, hundreds of days are spent analyzing and perfecting each job.

3.  Tom always figures out the best possible routing.

If these are true, then how good each course Tom does is purely a function of how good the land is for golf.  Therefore, since he picks different and unique pieces of property, I think Tom's courses the last few years are rather equal, with the possible exception of the Rawls course, which I haven't seen, but know that it is a flat piece of ground.

I don't ever remember Tom saying he thought he routed a course wrong.  I once heard him say some work is more inspired than others. 

I rarely if ever see what I would consider counter-intuitive strategy.  Renaissance Golf simply doesn't build counter-intuitive holes.  They all make strategic sense.

Stone Eagle is a steeper site than Rock Creek.  I made sure to walk Rock Creek, so I could compare the two walks.  Stone Eagle is shorter, but much more intense.  Rock Creek is an easier but longer walk.  Jonathan, did you actually walk Stone Eagle?  It's very difficult but can be managed.

Although there are some aspects of Sebonack I like better than Rock Creek, I've got Rock Creek over Sebonack.  And as everybody knows by now, I prefer Ballyneal over Pacific Dunes by a nose these days.  Actually, they are my two favorite courses, and would give each a 10.

I have two more posts I'd like to make before watching from the sidelines for a while.

[Tom_Doak]

Jonathan:  I love how the "classic/modern" comparison is hard to make between Atlantic City and Rock Creek, when I designed both of them, less than ten years apart.

I think you've got several courses ranked way low because you are trying to make bigger gradations than you really should.  I wouldn't say all of my courses are equal, as John K. was trying to say, but putting The Legends above Stone Eagle, High Pointe, Tumble Creek and St. Andrews Beach is pretty far off base.

For what it's worth, I polled my associates a year ago for our inter-company rankings, and St. Andrews Beach was either #5 or #6, I can't remember which.  I'm sure it fell a notch this week, but your one visit there [before it was really ready to play] is probably not the best opinion on that one.