CBM & Merion - a short poll

[Mike_Cirba]

I think the results here are hysterical, frankly.

We evidently have 8 or so nimrods who would be suddenly MORE impressed with the Merion Golf Club if they found that CBM had a greater role.  

Nothing like the sycophantic worship of celebrity, I guess, whether it's Michael Jackson or CBM.  Must be a Hollywood thing.

I wonder how many of those folks have even seen the course before voting?  

[John Mayhugh]

I think the results here are hysterical, frankly.

We evidently have 8 or so nimrods who would be suddenly MORE impressed with the Merion Golf Club if they found that CBM had a greater role.  

Nothing like the sycophantic worship of celebrity, I guess, whether it's Michael Jackson or CBM.  Must be a Hollywood thing.

I wonder how many of those folks have even seen the course before voting?  

Mike,
Three simple questions for you:

1.  Do you think CBM achieved more in golf architecture than Hugh Wilson?

2.  Do you think either of the following statements is any more logical than the other?
a.  Giving CBM design credit at Merion hurts the course's reputation
b.  Giving CBM design credit at Merion helps the course's reputation

3.  Why would it be necessary to have played Merion before answering questions about how the Merion debates have affected one's perception of the course?

[PCCraig]

Just a note.

I find it funny that all the contributors of these Merion threads automatically assume that others on the board that don't have as strong of opinions as they do or post 800 times on a 65 page thread of Merion haven't actually played the course.

I've played Merion, I love the course, but I honestly do not care about it enough to get in the middle of the outrageous catfight that has been going on for the past couple months on here.

Something needs to be done to quiet this stuff down. Merion certainly deserves the historical research, but so do many other golf clubs in other parts of the world.

[JESII]

Pat,

Are you suggesting the guys doing the Merion research should drop it and begin researching some other course?



David M and Tom M,

Curious if either of you think CBM was showed any land other than Ardmore by the Merion committee?

[PCCraig]

Pat,

Are you suggesting the guys doing the Merion research should drop it and begin researching some other course?

No, but they could stad to take a step back and digest the information every once in a while. The constant rambling and bickering in between the various researchers does nothing to further benefit Merion or their own agendas.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I agree we need to quiet this down. From now on, I am using smaller type.

[Tom MacWood]

Pat,

Are you suggesting the guys doing the Merion research should drop it and begin researching some other course?



David M and Tom M,

Curious if either of you think CBM was showed any land other than Ardmore by the Merion committee?

Jim
I don't believe he inspected any other land. CBM only mentioned the one site in his letter to Lloyd and described some of its desirable features, including the quarry and the stream. Barker only mentioned one site in his letter from around the same time, and he describes its location south of College Ave in Haverford. CBM referred to it as the site you propose buying and Barker called it the site you propose laying out a course.

[JESII]

Tom,

Tom Paul mentioned there being one or two other locations considered by Merion Cricket at one time...the fact that they only showed CBM and Barker this site tells me they had previously selected it barring any grave warning from CBM or Barker.

The Lesley report/letter on July 1, 1910 discussing the endorsement by CBM is clearly a tactic to garner support for the move...CBM did not select that site as David implies in his report and in a post this weekend on this thread which prompted the question...

[Tom MacWood]

In his 1914 article Robert Lesley said they considered another site before settling on the current one. Based on the content of CBM and Barker's letters it appears they settled on the site prior to engaging them. Here is a link to the article.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1914/gi23h.pdf

[Mike_Cirba]

Lloyd had already purchased the land for his palace and construction was underway.   

It was a done deal.   Macdonald's letter is hardly a rousing referral, which I suspect is why it was never sent to the board.

[JESII]

Tom,

I guess that's my point about David's suggestion that CBM was instrumental in selecting the land...I don't think he was.

[Tom MacWood]

Jim
You could be right.

This how the letter began:

"Dear Mr. Lloyd
Mr. Whigham and I have discussed the various merits of the land you proposed buying, and we think it has some very desirable features."

Apparently he was asked to give his opinion of the property before they purchased it. If they were simply asking him for a favorable report to garner support I don't think he would have gone into the detail that he did, and they would have attached it to the official MCC report. And I don't believe Lloyd & Co needed support from anyone, they did what they wanted. It appears to me they were honestly seeking CBM's expertise and guidance. I guess the question is would they have gone else had he given a negative report?

On a related note Robert Lesley purchased 130 acres at Radnor in May 1909. "It is understood the purchaser will make extensive improvements to the ground." I sent the article to Merion, and they didn't think much of it.

[JESII]

I'd also disagree with who was really calling the shots on this committee.  MCC's Site Committee recomended purchase and MCC purchased the land based largely on CBM's recommendation. 

Tom,

This was the phrase that caught my attention...

I think they had the land decision narrowed down and used CBM's blessing to further convince the audience that it was a good one...an expert approval.

[DMoriarty]

Mike Sweeney

Thanks for answering my question.   I don't really understand your answer but I appreciate you remaining civil.  I'll follow up some other time.
________________________

Jim, I'll address your question on a different thread.

__________________________________________

John,

My bad.  I had hoped I could ask Mike Sweeney a few questions without having Cirba hurl unprovoked insults at your poll participants, but I should have known better.   I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for Mike to answer to your questions.  He'll ignore you unless someone explains to him which answers best fit his mantra.

I'll go away now and hopefully Cirba will follow.   Maybe if I play a musical pipe and walk toward the river . . . .