[Patrick_Mucci]

The next time you're playing with your friends (note to TEPaul: you can get a discount for multi-day rentals) play The STYMIE, and see how much fun you have.

See how you can now employ defense in your match.

Then, report back to us and relate your experience.

Tell us if you had more, less or the same amount of fun competing against your buddy/ies

[Pete Lavallee]

Pat,

Can we really play the Stymie, which the necessary chip overs on todays puting surfaces? If I were to try and chip over a ball with my 9 iron I'm almost sure it would involve talking a divot. When I watch Bobby Jones do it on TV he just brushes the grass; there does appear to be quite a lot of it! Does the Stymie only work when green speeds are less than 6 or 7?

[Bill_McBride]

I think it only works with two ball singles matches, which can be hard to arrange at today's busy courses.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pete,

My dad's generation was certainly adept at it.

A wristy stroke would seem to be an asset.

Faster greens probably make it more challenging.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Patrick,
More like 'impossible' than 'challenging' 

[RSLivingston_III]

With the fast greens, I recommend a fairly lofted club. At least 50 degrees and maybe even 60. It will be important to find one that also has less than 2 degrees of bounce and lacks the bulbous leading edge that seems to be favored today.
The best clubs pre-1930 had 2 degrees or less bounce, even some having upwards to 5 degrees dig. The leading edges are noticeably sharper than anything on the market today.

[Mike Mosely]

The next time you're playing with your friends (note to TEPaul: you can get a discount for multi-day rentals) play The STYMIE, and see how much fun you have.

See how you can now employee defense in your match.

Then, report back to us and relate your experience.

Tell us if you had more, less or the same amount of fun competing against your buddy/ies

Isn't that a good way to get a gap wedge in the nuts from your playing partners:)

[JESII]

Two questions Pat...

1) how often does a ball actually end up in the way to the extent that the stymie really matters?

2) would you really use a shot to try to cause your opponent to take an extra shot?

[wsmorrison]

Admittedly I do not know the rules or the history of the rules very well.  However, I don't think a gentleman sportsman would intentionally stymie a competitor.  The stymie was not a defensive move but rather an artifact of one of the oldest rules that you didn't touch your ball until it was holed out.

Deliberately trying to defend the hole with your ball is poor sportsmanship.  Come on, Pat.  Is that how they play in north Jersey and the western part of Long Island?

[Padraig Dooley]

I'd imagine laying an intentional stymie is harder then holing the putt.

Having someone else knock in your ball would be worth the hard work!

 

[JESII]

Wayne,

It's also braindead...why waste a shot (by intentionally missing a putt) only to hopefully add a stroket to your opponents score?

I can actually see a "gentleman sportsman" doing it, just not a smart one...

[wsmorrison]

"I can actually see a "gentleman sportsman" doing it, just not a smart one..."

Is his name Pat Mucci?

[Kyle Harris]

Admittedly I do not know the rules or the history of the rules very well.  However, I don't think a gentleman sportsman would intentionally stymie a competitor.  The stymie was not a defensive move but rather an artifact of one of the oldest rules that you didn't touch your ball until it was holed out.

Deliberately trying to defend the hole with your ball is poor sportsmanship.  Come on, Pat.  Is that how they play in north Jersey and the western part of Long Island?

I've always found the best way to defend against my opponent beating me was to get the ball to the hole in fewer strokes than he.

If you're good enough to stop a ball along the line of your opponents ball, you ought to be good enough to hole the ball out!

[Mike Nuzzo]

It is on our scorecard -- which is 6" long - not coincidently.
My client looked at me like I was nuts -- after I described the rule.

[RJ_Daley]

Talk about spike marks and wear causing the mini vulcano around the hole as the day wears on and the turf gets ragged within a few feet of the hole.  I imagine after a day of stymies, there'd be a lot of mini divots within a couple feet of the hole... I imagine the GCSAA isn't a big proponent of the stymie... 

[Phil_the_Author]

Pat,

The problem with this for me is that my ball is always the one inside and none of my friends would play that way!

[Carl Nichols]

With my short game, I couldn't play this game -- otherwise I'd destroy a bunch of greens.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

I'll be happy to play stymies, particularly with you but the fact that you propose "defense" in golf (vis-a-vis the reinstitution of the stymie) just proves to me you will never really understand the evolution of the Rules of Golf and the basic principles behind them as I do.

When I first began my "Honor" proposal to the USGA (and R&A) that lasted for six years and through two quadrennial R&A/USGA Joint Rules reviews, I lined up a lot of most interesting support for the idea. One of them was Ward Foshay, past president of the USGA and one of the men at the "Rules Unification" meetings between the R&A and USGA in 1950-52. He agreed to support my "Honor" proposal but only if I added a stymie reinstitution proposal to it. Thankfully, I convinced him that may be an issue for another time. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Two questions Pat...

1) how often does a ball actually end up in the way to the extent that the stymie really matters?

JES II,

That's the beauty of it, you learn how to "leave" yourself so that your opponent has to contend with getting around your ball.

It's not an accidental occurance in many cases

2) would you really use a shot to try to cause your opponent to take an extra shot?

Absolutely, that's the beauty of match play and the Stymie.
Defense is inserted into the game, where it was for centuries until 1951.
It becomes more like a chess match.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'd imagine laying an intentional stymie is harder then holing the putt.

Having someone else knock in your ball would be worth the hard work!

Not really, you just try to err on the side that benefits you most if you miss.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Admittedly I do not know the rules or the history of the rules very well.  However, I don't think a gentleman sportsman would intentionally stymie a competitor. 

Then, you'd be wrong, unless you don't consider Bobby Jones and other notables to be gentlemen.

The stymie was not a defensive move but rather an artifact of one of the oldest rules that you didn't touch your ball until it was holed out.

You're wrong on this too.
It was an integral part of play, especially defensive play.

Deliberately trying to defend the hole with your ball is poor sportsmanship. 


No it's not.
It was an integral part of the game for centuries until 1951.

The emphasis on Medal play helped bring about it's extinction, along with some famous incidents.

Are goalies poor sports ?

Safeties and cornerbacks ?

Common, it adds a great element to match play.

Unless of course, you're one of those who wants to make concessions in the name of "fairness"

Come on, Pat.  Is that how they play in north Jersey and the western part of Long Island?

That's how they played for centuries, all over the world.

I'd imagine that some wimps from Philly were behind the effort to ban the practice.

Gil Hanse even designed areas around the green and on the green with the Stymie in mind at Applebrook, just ask TEPaul.
 

[Jim Nugent]

I'd like to learn about some matches where players used the stymie.  Any famous ones? 

[wsmorrison]

Pat, you are confused.  I doubt Bob Jones intentionally stymied any opponent.  It just wasn't proper sportsmanship.  I realize the symie was in effect all those years, but the mindset of golfers was not to waste a shot and try to stymie the opponent, or by your terminology "play defense" like a goalie or in billiards.  No, the stymie was a consequence and not a deliberate act.  I think you're wrong.  I'm sure Tom Paul and others that know the history of the rules and decisions will know the answer far better than I.  As little as I know about the subject, it appears you know less 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jim Nugent,

From an old article by Laurence Viney, co-editor of The Royal & Ancient Golf Club Golfer's Handbook:

On two occasions in the 1930's a stymie played a vital part in important Championship matches. In 1936 at Garden City, Long Island, in the U.S. Amateur final, Johnny Fischer laid Jack Maclean of Scotland a dead stymie at the 34th hole when Maclean was one up. As a result he lost at the 37th instead of a likely win at the 35th.
 
In the 1930 British Amateur Bob Jones beat Cyril Tolley in the fourth round at St. Andrews with the help of a stymie at the 19th. Few realize that Bob's memorable Grand Slam might not have been achieved, but for the stymie he laid Tolley.

The author goes on to say that:  As the average golfer came to regard returning a good score as more important than the match, so the authorities recognized that if match play was to survive, the "unfair" nature of the stymie should no longer play a part in the game.

[Jim Nugent]

Jim Nugent,

From an old article by Laurence Viney, co-editor of The Royal & Ancient Golf Club Golfer's Handbook:

On two occasions in the 1930's a stymie played a vital part in important Championship matches. In 1936 at Garden City, Long Island, in the U.S. Amateur final, Johnny Fischer laid Jack Maclean of Scotland a dead stymie at the 34th hole when Maclean was one up. As a result he lost at the 37th instead of a likely win at the 35th.
 
In the 1930 British Amateur Bob Jones beat Cyril Tolley in the fourth round at St. Andrews with the help of a stymie at the 19th. Few realize that Bob's memorable Grand Slam might not have been achieved, but for the stymie he laid Tolley.
 

Thanks.  Do you know if these were intentional stymies? 

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