[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

1 #15 Country Club (Cleveland) 417
2 #16 Merion 445
3 # 6 Augusta Nat'l 185
4 #14 St.Andrews 527
5 # 8 Pebble Beach 425
6 #5 Sandwich 451
7 #8 Oakmont 253
8 #13 ANGC 480
9 #4 Pine Valley 446

10 #15 Hoylake 443
11 #10 NGLA 435
12 #8 St.Andrews 150
13 #4 Lido 446
14 #13 St.Andrews 410
15 #16 St.Andrews 348
16 #16 Cypress Point 222
17 #18 Baltusrol 526
18 #14 ANGC 425

* The article mentioned the holes were not necessarily in the order Bobby would put them.

Some interesting choices, he seems to admire long difficult par-4s.

[Will E]

Tom,
thanks for the list, @ 7038 yards (circa 193_?) it looks like his Ideal Course would be suited to his game for sure. I know Jones was very long compared to his peers.
what do you think Tiger's ideal course would look like? Would every par 4 look like 12 @BPB?

[Ran Morrissett]

No hole delights me more on that list than seeing the 4th at Pine Valley included - for no good reason, it rarely seems to garner praise. In the context of PV's great two shotters, it is one of the best, with its open green front making it one of the most option filled - and fun - shots on the course.

I am surprised not to see the 15th at NGLA on the list, not that I am a huge fan of it, but rather I had read where Jones considered it the finest hole on that course.

Playing the 16th on The Old Course from 348 would be very interesting indeed.

[CB]

When did Jones compile this list?  Were #13 and #14 at ANGC really 480 and 425 in Jones' day?  #14 at ANGC is an interesting choice for a finishing hole.

Interesting also that he chose #8 at St. Andrews over #11; could it be that he never could completely appreciate #11 after what he did there in 1921?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

The article was written in 1936. The course did come out to 7000 yards and it was about this time that the magic 7000 number began gaining momentum - Pinehurst #2 was advertising their new redesigned 7000 yard test.

It was Jones's opinion that #16 TOC was the finest sub 400 yard 4-par in the world. He also made a point that his prefernce was for par-5's which were reachable in two - he was not a fan of the full three shotter. #14 AGNG had a huge bunker that effected the tee shot in 1936. He claimed it took him several years to come up with the list, he said he changed it numerous times. The order of the holes was not Jones's.

[John Bernhardt]

I am suprised #8 TOC would be chosen over #11 or any of a 1000 other par 3's. I find that to be the weakest hole at TOC.

[Bob_Huntley]

John:

I totally agree, but what is interesting is that there ae very few birdies during tournamnent play at the eighth.

[Ran Morrissett]

I have read where Jones was mesmerized by how that front bunker on 8 totally dominates the entire hole, with the hole playing much harder downwind.

[Tom MacWood]

Speaking of best 18s here is Bobby Jones'.

[Tom_Doak]

The great thing about this list is that there are so many places where Jones picks against convention.

From St. Andrews, he picks not only the 8th over the 11th, but the 13th over the Road hole.

From Augusta, he picks the 6th and 14th in addition to the 13th.  [Of course, in 1936, some of the other popular picks from Augusta were not the holes they are today.]

From Baltusrol, he picks the 18th, not the 4th or 17th.  From National, he picks the 10th.  From Pine Valley, the 4th, and only the 4th.  From Sandwich, the 5th, and not the 4th.

It makes me realize how sad it is that there has been so much discussion of golf course architecture that there is little room today for unconventional and thoughtful choices in lists such as this.

[Mac Plumart]

Tom I agree with your comments.  I think a lot of people suffer from Groupthink regarding golf, golf holes, golf architecture, etc.  Frankly, I think a lot of "non-conformers" take a lot of heat on this site and elsewhere.  But perhaps we need to listen more and not just dismiss their thoughts as not relevant.

Your books have a lot of interesting stuff in the back of them that has food for thought.  Melvyn certainly offers a different opinion on a lot of things and is "shouted down" in a lot of instances...but when I think about what he says, read what the great Old School Architects wrote about, I can't help but think he is correct on 99% of what he says.  Anthony Gray is a well-traveled golfer with a taste in courses that is a bit different from some on this site...but he offers a damn interesting point of view.

Anyway, I could go on and on...but I love lists like this as they make me re-think some of the things that I have heard and, maybe, take for granted as fact...when in reality there is no fact regarding the best holes or courses.

Great thread and posts!

[Bill_McBride]

The great thing about this list is that there are so many places where Jones picks against convention.

From St. Andrews, he picks not only the 8th over the 11th, but the 13th over the Road hole.

From Augusta, he picks the 6th and 14th in addition to the 13th.  [Of course, in 1936, some of the other popular picks from Augusta were not the holes they are today.]

From Baltusrol, he picks the 18th, not the 4th or 17th.  From National, he picks the 10th.  From Pine Valley, the 4th, and only the 4th.  From Sandwich, the 5th, and not the 4th.

It makes me realize how sad it is that there has been so much discussion of golf course architecture that there is little room today for unconventional and thoughtful choices in lists such as this.

Is it possible the 4th at Sandwich was a par 5 in those days?

4 and 5 back to back par 4s there is a real test!  I love that shot through the gap in the dunes on #5, that and the split level fairway really make the hole.

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