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corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Turbo boosts
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2008, 08:00:08 AM »
It would seem to me that a feature should only be termed a turbo boost if  shots to only one particular side of the fairway benefit.

Sleepy Hollow #8 has a giant elephant buried in the fairway.  Balls hit straight and long will get the turbo boost others hit a little off line and not as long will end up with funky lies.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 01:07:21 PM by corey miller »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Turbo boosts
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2008, 08:30:27 AM »
Corey,

I tend to agree with that definition or description, all others would seem to be merely downhill shots.

The bona fide turbo boost would seem to be one where ONLY balls hit to a specific side/area benefit, and not the entire spectrum of tee shots that meet the minimum distance requirement off the tee..

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Turbo boosts
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2008, 08:53:45 AM »
I'll retract my mother of all TB's to include the 17th @ Kingsley. If'n one could reach it.

Also, Lawsonia would be the template for kick plate turbo boosts. The diagonal ridges that Langford placed throughout the course are multi functional as it relates to risk and reward.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 10:32:12 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Turbo boosts
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2008, 11:04:02 AM »
I'll retract my mother of all TB's to include the 17th @ Kingsley. If'n one could reach it.

Also, Lawsonia would be the template for kick plate turbo boosts. The diagonal ridges that Langford placed throughout the course are multi functional as it relates to risk and reward.

Kingsley has some incredible turbo boosts.  #1 (if you can reach it), #3 a bit more subtle, #4, #6 (although it turbo boosts you to the left rough!), #7, #12 (subtle but really cool - both on the tee shot and the approach), #16, and #17 if you can bomb it.  There are others as well.  It's like a hidden turbo boost paradise.

Longshadow also had some pretty good ones from my recollection of the Dixie Cup.

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Turbo boosts
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2008, 03:30:04 PM »
Kikiyu has eliminated one of golf's best turbo boosts, the 4th hole at Riviera.  Yes, a 230 yard par 3.  Before kikiyu, one could, if with the proper flight, strike a 170 yard shot and have the ball carry a bunker on the right, roll to the right past the main bunker in front of the green and take the hill's slope and roll down onto the green 230 yards out.
A fabulous design allowing the weaker player who cannot carry the ball 225 yards in the air to play even with one who can.
Was it Flynn who said the most important skills in this order in golf are accuracy, carry and distance.
Could this have been one of the reasons Hogan called the 4th one of the greatest par 3's in America?
An accurate shot with the correct carry and trajectory should still have a place in golf.  In this case kikiyu today prevents it.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Turbo boosts
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2008, 04:01:03 PM »
# 4 @ Leatherstocking. 510 yrd par 5

 Hit the right side (challanging the OB) you get a huge kick to the center of the fairway.

Hit the center or left it kicks you into the rough.

One oif the many great holes at a great course.
Integrity in the moment of choice

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Turbo boosts
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2008, 04:03:53 PM »

Was it Flynn who said the most important skills in this order in golf are accuracy, carry and distance.



Lynn,

I believe that was from Flynn.


What do we suppose the difference is between "carry" and "distance"? How can distance be less important than carry? Is the distinction substantially less today than 80 years ago?


Percy Boomer said something along the lines of..."power, like fire, is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I think that is further support of the accuracy & ball control over raw power school of handicapping golf...why is it then that the best in the business are able to hit 50% of the fairways on their way to winning $10 million?  


How can our modern architects encourage more ball control from the people playing their courses?

Peter Pallotta

Re: Turbo boosts
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2008, 04:27:16 PM »
JES -

Was Flynn one of the best of the old architects at routing his courses so as to take advantage of the natural slopes/tilts/features of the land in creating interesting and challenging fairways?

(Others, maybe, focused more on finding natural features for green sites and/or hazards, but not so much for fairways...?)

From pictures and descriptions, he seemed to have paid a good deal of attention to how he could use the land in shaping fairways that sloped left to right or right to left, and thus in creating sidehill lies of all kinds.

And I think that sidehill lies combined with firm conditions are just about the most interesting type of test of all, calling for thought and accuracy and ball and distance control, both on the drive and the approach.

I don't know if that combination would challenge the very good (or best) players, but it does challenge most of us.

Though a lot of good posts here have explained how well turbo boosts can and do work, I think if I had to choose between downhill fairway features and sidehill fairway features, I'd take the latter every time...

Peter   

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Turbo boosts
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2008, 04:54:36 PM »
Lynn Shackelford,

That's a great example of a turbo boost and an alternate route, away from the target, that deflects the ball with forward momentum to the target.

I suppose we could say the same about most well constructed Redans.

JES II,

I think you have to view carry and distance diffently today, versus many years ago.

I remember playing against a fellow in the North-South Amateur about 40 years ago when the fairways were very firm.  He hit a low draw/hook that ran forever.  While my carries were much farther, on many holes he was way ahead of me.  The critical factor for him was keeping that low sweeping draw/hook in the fairway or short rough, but, when he did, the ball ran forever.

Today, that shot wouldn't be nearly as effective on many lush courses.

Today, Carry and distance are almost synonymous.

The really long ball hitters all carry the ball enormous distances.

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Turbo boosts
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2008, 05:09:21 PM »
10 at Augusta National. 
The 18th at Rolling Green has one; we call it "the G spot."  As in, "I hit the G spot."

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Turbo boosts
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2008, 05:14:28 PM »


What a coincidence! :D

The first hole which came to mind after 10 at Augusta was the GREAT 612 yard par 5 16th at Sand Hills Golf Club.

Could a hole YOU panned despite protests from those on this website more informed than you not only have a turbo boost REWARD off the tee for the bold amongst us, but ALSO a diagonal spline which PUNISHES the weaker tee ball and separates safe/average from certain doom???

Geno, I didn't pan the hole, I just didn't grant it deity status as other posters did.

I happen to like the challenge off the tee, the risk/reward involved.
[/color]

AND BOTH THESE FEATURES ARE ALL NATURAL.

I don't know of another golf hole on the PLANET which after four golfers hit their tee balls at least 225 yards IN THE FAIRWAY could and does leave players MORE THAN 200 YARDS APART!

As a par 5 that situation, which I like, is somewhat muted.
Whereas, on # 10 at ANGC the consequences are far more dire.


But again, more great features of a great hole gone unnoticed as you raced by it all in your golf cart. :-\

Unlike that Idiot-Savant I played with, who was released from HappyDale farms on a weekend furlough, my powers of observation remain keen, irrespective of whether or not I'm walking or riding.

I didn't get lost in the Denver Airport.
I didn't get lost trying to walk the Constellation routing.
I didn't get lost riding around Sand Hills in a cart at NIGHT.
And, I didn't leave all the lights on in my room and all the windows and doors open when I went to dinner, only to find a convention, with every insect in the State of Nebraska attending, when I returned to my room.



JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Turbo boosts
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2008, 05:14:45 PM »
Peter,

I am not great at judging the process of "routing", I don't really know how...but I can say that I am pretty sure Flynn looked for the opportunities you are asking about. He seemed to create many difficult angles and stances in the landing zone that would serve to challenge the approach shot. He doesn't seem to directly penalize tee shots that miss his ideal approach position (few bunkers and water hazards guarding his fairways), but the shot into the green (or layup on par 5's) gets gradually more difficult the further you are from Position A.


Patrick,

I think that all makes sense.

Tell me, what would you look for an architect to do to encourage more ball control from golfers?  Not just high level golfers, all golfers.

I think it is important to retain/regain the idea that golf is a game people should try to improve at. I think that mindset is key to building interest level in the game.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Turbo boosts
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2008, 05:43:35 PM »
JES II,

I think the architect's task is far more difficult today because of the broader spectrum with respect to distance.

50 years ago the gap between the PGA Tour Pro, superior national amateurs, superior local amateurs and club players wasn't that wide.

Today, it's enormous.

So, how do you offer a challenge for all levels ?

My answer: ...... you don't.

Forget about the Pros and Mad Bombers.

Design the golf course for the other 98 % of the golfing world.

My preference is for wide fairways, penal strategic bunkers, interesting and difficult green surrounds and contoured putting surfaces.

A golfer who shoots 90-100-110 isn't hitting greens in regulation, thus, he can navigate his way to the green provided he's given an alternate route from the route for the plus, scratch or low handicap golfer.

People have discussed Tom Doak's 6th hole at PD as a good example of providing alternate routes.

NGLA abounds in alternate routes.

Again, I think the key lies in wide fairways as a starter.
Without them, the mid to high handicapper is doomed and bored.

One of the things that disturbed me was when I visited Pinehurst # 2, a golf course I'd been playing for close to 50 years and saw that the fairways had remained narrowed, after the big shows had left town.

I think that deprives the mid to high handicap of a joyous challenge.
It becomes too difficult for his game.

On the other hand, golfers are stupid.
They continue to search for the Red Badge of Courage.
The revel in playing the same golf course that the best players in the world have trouble playing.

I used to love playing ANGC from the Masters Tees.
While I can play from the Masters tees, the course from that distance is really beyond my abililty and wouldn't bring me as much fun as playing from the Member's tees, which might be a little short for my liking.

But, you have to ask yourself, like ordering at a restaurant,
What do you want ?  A challenge that's fun, that can be attained ?
Or, a challenge that's overwhelming, that can't be attained ?

Part of the problem is the focus on medal score, which, we're forced to do in order to establish a handicap.

Recently, I played Friar's Head with a friend of mine.
We had a great match in a 2-3 club length wind.
Some of the holes were barely reachable in the wind, but, because par was irrelevant, we didn't care, we just wanted to beat each other, and have fun in doing so.

We commented on what a great game this is, where you can spend hours being both friends and competitors, tellilng jokes to, and needling your opponent.  And, the handicap system equalizes the disparity in ability, hence, you're competing without prejudice.

But, as you narrow the field of play and dictate play, the equalization can get distorted and the fun removed.

Sand Hills, Friar's Head, GCGC and ANGC are no pushovers, but, you can have fun while trying to meet the challenge.   The challenge provided by the golf course and the challenge against your playing opponent.

Wide fairways are the foundation for great golf courses.

End of rant.


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Turbo boosts
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2008, 06:57:57 PM »

The 18th at Rolling Green has one; we call it "the G spot."  As in, "I hit the G spot."



Jim,

Is the G-Spot just over the bunkers? Does it kick the ball far enough or left enough to have an unrestricted view of the green?

By the way, played yesterday...course is awesome.

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Turbo boosts
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2008, 07:10:14 PM »
Unfortunately I think the game has evolved from Flynn's day.  Equipment has enabled power and distance to become as or more vital than carry.
I recently had an "old" golf experience.  I was playing with the club secretary at Rye.  I would pound out a drive high and what I thought was pretty decent.  Then he would hit a low liner, not getting much off the ground.  I felt badly for him until we got out to his ball and he was 10 yards in front of me.  After this happened 3 times I made a comment to him about it.  He said it was a necessary way to play at Rye.  I was filled with envy.  He had perfected a drive based on skill and not power.  I still don't know how to do that.  Executing different shots is still one of golf's biggest pleasures, but seldom seen on TV.  TV and golf's loss.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Turbo boosts
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2008, 07:16:13 PM »
And that is why, Lynn, I feel so strongly that firm courses, at the expense of lush green, should be the number one objective of the bodies that guide the direction of the game...so many other things would fall into place if every course were maintained as firm as possible...not firm and green as my buddies here in Philadelphia like to spout, just firm...

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Turbo boosts
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2008, 08:22:45 AM »
Jim:
       Yes. If you carry just over the left side of the bunkers, it will kick to the left side of the fairway, leaving you 170-190.

From the new back tee, it's a pretty tough carry, but doable.

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Turbo boosts
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2008, 11:12:47 AM »
   I always forget whether JES II is Jamie Slonis or Jim Sullivan.  It occurs to me now that it's probably Jamie.  Sorry.  Glad you enjoyed the course.  We're quite proud of it these days.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Turbo boosts
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2008, 02:22:50 PM »
 ;D :) ;)


I'm for turbo boosts that help the straight hitter ....most long hitters don't lneed much help these days....TEP that's precisely the reason I never liked the new bunkers on the right side of #4 at PV ....I used to love watching guys cut the corner and sweat whether it was perfect of not so good ...today it's dead  over there ...and makes for less interest....

Lee Trevino always moaned about the turbo boosts at Augusta...but there appears to be more to that story than just his ability to carry the ball far enough ,,,,his claim that it just gave the long hitters an even bigger advantage has always seemed a little suspect... butttttt  ???

Mike_Cirba

Re: Turbo boosts
« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2008, 03:56:55 PM »
   I always forget whether JES II is Jamie Slonis or Jim Sullivan.  It occurs to me now that it's probably Jamie.  Sorry.  Glad you enjoyed the course.  We're quite proud of it these days.

Nope Jim...it's Jim. 

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Turbo boosts
« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2008, 07:35:39 PM »
Thanks.  I'm sure I'll forget again.  I'm getting old.

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