[Patrick_Mucci]

I played a Donald Ross course last week that contained a defensive feature that I've come to like.

The green is slightly to moderately elevated, but the front of the green is crowned with the downslope of the crown feeding back down to the front of the green, causing mis-hit and short shots to, fail to get to the heart of the green, and more often then not fall back off the green leaving a difficult chip/pitch/putt.

I've seen this feature in similar, harsher and softer forms.

Does this architectual feature appeal to you ?

Do you notice its absence in modern day designs ?

What are some other great examples of this feature ?
Name the hole and golf course.

[SPDB]

Pat - I think Fazio uses this design technique quite a bit, if I fully comprehend what you are trying to describe. Off the top of my head I can think of a couple at Hartefeld Nat'l.

#7, a very short par 4 usually requiring no more than a PW, SW in, but the green is crowned with a huge gully/collection area in front, in which I seem to find myself more often than not.
#16 too.

[ChipOat]

Pat:

Sounds much more appealing to me than mounds or stupid trees.  I've probably played a bunch of holes with this feature and not noticed it.

Which course did you play and which hole was it?  Can you remember any other instances that I might recognize?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chipoat,

Shame, shame, shame,

And you just came from playing four days at NGLA and didn't notice this feature at # 1

To lessor degrees it can also be found on # 5, 7, 8, 12, 13 and 15.

I was playing Mountain Ridge.
In varying degrees, # 4,5,6,9,12,13,17 possess this feature and a case could be made for some other holes as well.

I think it's a great defense for forward pin positions and can make one think of alternate methods of approach.
Execute or pay the consequences, I like it.

The 4th hole at GCGC has the same feature.

I seem to recall a hole or two at The Creek with a similar configuration, like # 13 and 15.

[Steve Sayers]

I’m not sure this qualifies, as it is not part of the initial design intent, but rather an “evolutionary feature”:

Lu Lu CC (Ross c. 1912)
# 15
Par 3
150 yards form the back tee

The front bunker has had significant sand build up (as much at 4+ feet) over the last 90 years or so.  The result is a semi obscured green form the tee.  If the pin is in the front, only the highest and softest of shots will stay on the front portion of the green -- all others, landing just over the downslope, soar to the back of the green.  Come up short and you are in the bunker.

The future of the “evolutionary feature” is uncertain as we are in the process of a master / restoration plan that may call for the shaving down of the build up back to the original Ross design.

[brad_miller]

# 6 at Greenwich CC, many a shot almost or just makes the green only to fall back leaving a difficult chip with 2-3 ways to play.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

In listening to your description, I assume the front mounded feature is not directly behind a bunker, correct?  

Steve's example at LuLu is a bit more treacherous (unfair to a front pin, perhaps?) because it takes away the low, running option that just reaches the crest and continues onto the green.  

The 8th at Merion has a similar feature, once again due to sand buildup from the fronting bunker.  

William and David Gordon also designed quite a number of greens where the bunkers (although usually not directly in front, but more diagonal) are actually raised to the highest points, with the green flowing down away from them.  In a way, this type of feature acts somewhat as green "containment" on approach shots, but you don't want to be short-siding yourself on their courses.

Patrick, it sounds like a fun and interesting feature utilized properly.  I have played Sean's example at Hartefeld, and I'm not sure it's what you are talking about.  That green is more on a raised, elevated shelf, falling off sharply off the front, but the green itself is relatively flattish.  It's a good hole, and a neat concept, but if I understand you correctly, Patrick, the shelf is on the green itself, correct?

[Tom_Egan]

There are a few examples of this at French Lick (IN), a Ross course.  Namely, #'s 6, 9, 13, and 16.  There's a Doak couse in Southern Indiana, Quail Crossing, where greens of this description appear on #'s 4 and 16.  

Also, would #'s 5 and 15 at Baltusrol Lower fall into this category, or are they just false fronts?  I get a little confused between your description and classic false front greens.

[ChipOat]

OK I think I get it.

Examples:

Merion #'s 12 (huge!) and 17 (or any other "Valley of Sin"
       knock-off);
Deepdale #'s 8 (to the extreme!), 11 and 15;
National #12 (big time) and #8 although the front bunkers
       sort of distract you from it;
Rockaway #'s 2 (left side) and 15

Have I got it?  If so, I think the maintenance meld needs to allow for a run-up shot a la NGLA.  A soft fairway (automatic watering systems!!!) that requires the ball to be flown to the green takes much of the fun out, I think.

Mike Cirba:

Don't understand how Merion #8 fits into this.  Because of the sand splash, the front of that green is angled TOWARDS the center - not back towards the fairway.  If I understand Pat's concept, #12 is what he means - balls hit to the front of the green roll back off.

[Mike_Cirba]

chipoat;

One of us is seriously confused, and it's probably me!

My mention of Merion's 8th was predicated by Steve's mention of the 15th at Lulu, where the beginning of the green starts with a steep downslope that propels balls towards the back end.  In both of those cases, bunker buildup is responsible.

I attempted to differentiate those examples from what I think Patrick really means...a quick, steep centered upslope, that quickly falls away.  The ideal shot to a front pin might land short, deaden, slowly climb the embankment, and trickle just beyond to a front pin.  Conversely, a shot flown beyond the "upslope" risks being banked quickly to the back.

If I understand what Patrick is saying, there is NO bunker involved, but rather this feature is generally at the very front center of the green.  Therefore, I agree that the 8th at Merion & 15th at LuLu are not examples of this phenomenon, although the effect is similar.

Sometimes, I wish I had one of the John Madden telestrators on here to draw what I'm trying to describe, but I think we're on the same page.  

Patrick, are we getting it?    

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I don't know if this would be considered a defense, but a difficulty I encountered recently was optical illusion. I played a little known Ross gem Westbrook in Mansfield. The clubhouse sits on the highpoint of the property and the course plays down the side of this fairly steep hill. As we walked down the hill on #1 my host brought to my attention a clanking noise in the distance. "That's the steel mill and everything breaks toward the mill."  I didn't give it much thought.

Like most courses built on the side of a hill the greens are pushed up to create relatively flat putting services. After seeing some very wierd things on the first couple greens, I made damn sure I found the corner of the property where you could hear the noise of the steel mill. Putts that looked to be severely down hill were sometimes actually uphill. Putts that had to break to the left broke the opposite direction and vice versa. I'd experienced a similar situation at The Broadmoor in Colorado - in a fog that was even crazier optically - so I had no problem ignoring what my eyes were telling me (to my hosts amazement - I think the relish newcomers looking like fools). I have no idea if this was deliberate design tactic or an accident of the circumstances, but it is one hell of a defense, especially for the unsuspecting.

[TEPaul]

Steve Sayers:

I can understand the decision making with your #15 and the considerable sand buildup on the fronting bunker making a downslope green area just behind it.

I realize the hole was not designed that way and that feature is purely evolution but there are so many holes like that around this area with fronting bunkers that are excellent and quite demanding because of that.

Good examples are Merion's #8 & #13, Gulph Mills's #8 #11 and certainly your #15.

All these holes are the type requiring short irons approaches  and despite the fact they weren't designed this way I truly feel that this evolutionary feature plays into the modern aerial game with poetic justice. It does now require a certain high soft shot which actually puts far more pressure on a golfer than it was originally designed to do! This I look at as a real positive and personally much prefer to see this buildup and sort of Turbo feature over it remain!

There are plenty of classic courses with greens designed for the run-up shot but these very short holes with their fronting bunkers were clearly not designed for the run-up shot--ever.

I know you'll do what's right for the club and membership but personally I would hate to see that evolutionary feature go on your #15!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

You're correct, no bunker fronts the green, it's all done with slopes, approach slope and front green slope.

Tom Egan,

I forgot, # 5 and # 15 are examples of this feature, although ideally for me, a ridge runs across the front quarter of the green, as opposed to my second favorite, which is a sloping front green without the ridge.

I'm trying to remember some holes at Plainfield which may also incorporate this feature, like # 1.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba, et. al.,

The prefered defensive feature for me, is the ridge like  quality of the front of the green similar to # 1 and # 12 at NGLA, as opposed to a back to front sloping green, with a frontal drop off.

It is the ridge that guards pin positions behind it, and begins the tortuous slow roll of a miss hit or underclubbed shot, back off the green and down the slope.

The construction or insertion of the ridge presents a wall barrier to incoming shots against frontal pin positions.

Hit it too long and a nasty putt remains.
Hit the backside of the ridge and the same result occurs.
Hit it just short, and a nasty chip/pitch/putt remains against the same defensive element.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I know just what you mean and that's really good stuff. Not that much different really than something like the "Duel hole" at SFGC and I see that a "reverse tier" (downslope) is now under construction at Stonewall2--looks very cool! And of course it's on a short hole which works so well for that sort of thing!

[Dan Grossman]

Tom MacWood-

I agree with you completely.  I think those courses where it is tough to tell the direction of the green slope are really difficult.  The longish par three on the back nine at Westbrook (I think it is like #13 or 14) always threw me for a loop.  The green slopes away from you, although you think it slopes towards you.  I think I putted off that green everytime I played the course!!!  

[TEPaul]

The plumb-bob works guys for even deceptive breaks! I've only found one section of one green that completely fooled my plumb-bob. Not only did I miss-read the break it actually went the other way!!

[Dave_Miller]

Patick:  
Not quite sure I'm understanding this completely but would No.7 at Charles River be an example of this.  No bunkers, green has mound at front and balls can roll off or even to the side and off and green slopes after the mound to the back and it hit improperly over the mound can run off the back.
Best
Dave

[JSlonis]

I think #6 at Hollywood GC, NJ (380 yd par 4) is a great example of this feature. I saw many players in the NJ AM really struggle with the front part of this green.  

The first round pin position, which was borderline at best, was so close to the right front of this green, which is also the most severe part of the back end of the slope, that you could not get a ball within 15-20 ft. of the hole.

If you flew the ball over the slope you had a 20 footer at best. Where the pin was located you couldn't chance bouncing the ball in because there is so little room on the right front, and if you missed short of the slope you really couldn't save par unless you made a 15-20 foot putt.

All in all it is a great feature, but with the location of the hole it became too severe.

[GeoffreyC]

The first hole at Fenway is a short, 280 yard, drivable par 4 with a green that protects exactly as Pat describes.  It is open in front with an upslope to get to the front of the green.  The front section is quite shallow and leads into a quite sharp dip beyond it that constitutes a middle section of the green which rises considerably in its back third.  There is just so much going on in that green.  Front pins are particularly wicked because of that dip that propels balls toward the back of the green.  Putts from beyond the front pins must go up the slope and be hit with a pace that keeps the ball on the green.  Its easy to putt up the slope and then watch the ball continue off the front and down the upslope in front of the green.  This dip feature also makes the short pitch shots into the green so interesting for a variety of pin locations on this short opening hole.

[A_Clay_Man]

Perhaps a clarafication between what Pat describes and a false front would be helpful?

[TEPaul]

Jamie Slonis:

What you found there on #6 at Hollywood is part of the new design thinking and set-up! It's called "nonpositive strategy golf"! It's basic requirment is to remove every reward oriented option completely and see how golfers handle it!

Not that much different in setup than the application of the rule on relief from water completely covering a bunker. You get to drop the ball within the bunker in that part that is least deep!

The idea is you're getting screwed anyway and all you need to do is figure out how you can be least screwed!

[TEPaul]

Frankly, Jamie, you should look at that kind of setup (#6 Hollywood) as a great benefit to you! You appear to be calm, mostly unflappable and when you see things like that think only how much it benefits you in relation to others.

If it's in the Philly district just think, for instance, Andy Achenbach's reaction when he gets to that hole--the chances are he might go totally ballistic for a hole or two maybe the rest of the round. No matter where you are on the course when you hear Andy screaming you'll know he's gotten to that hole and it will at least be one down and only 142 more to go! The reason I didn't say 143 is because you're that player who's going to take maximum advantage of this mess!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave Miller,

I haven't seen Charles River, despite Chuckies many invitations, so I can't comment.

Jamie,

That's it exactly, ideally, with perhaps the green elevated a little more.
# 10 at Hollywood has the same feature.

TEPaul,

The setup requires one to contemplate their approach,  short and running or high and cutting.

I played Hollywood today, and we commented on how great that hole location is.  Jamie was playing in the State Amateur Championship, and I would dare say that the pin locations were not as difficult as the ones at NGLA for this years Singles
The State Amateur should test the best.

[TEPaul]

In my experiences state and local amateur championships generally present the fields with a pretty good test in their setups but it's some of the really good invitational tournaments that tend to get really intense in their setups.

In that category certainly the Crump, Hugh Wilson and Coleman invitational tournaments have been known to set up their courses for the tournaments as intense (or more so) than anything the touring pros ever see for tournament set ups. I'm primarily speaking about pin positions and sometimes green speeds too! I've never really seen anything like US Open rough setups in a good invitational, state or local amateur tournament setup!

I take that back. Once for a Philly Open (I think) Stonewall had a rough situation that would have had touring pros walking to the parking lot before finishing their rounds!

This year one course of the Patterson Cup (one of the GAP's two top amateur tournaments) will be played at Applebrook. The fairways are wide but as of now if you get off them in spots you can be into some of the heaviest fescue I've ever seen. It's in August but it's starting to make us a bit nervous. At the least on the "Competition sheet" we will probably have in bold letters--"play a provisional if in the slightest doubt!" The other course for the 36 hole one day Patterson Cup will be Aronomink.

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