Ballyneal Greens

[kconway]

what is the inspiration for the Ballyneal greens?

[Michael J. Moss]

[Doug Sobieski]

Kelly:

Bruce Hepner mentioned that 4 different people shaped green sites at Ballyneal, which is why there is such great variety.

Regards,

Doug

[Michael J. Moss]

Calling Adam Clayman!

[Adam Clayman]

I'm only able to give my opinion.

The greens and everything else at BN is inspired by the surrounding terrain. 17 chop hills holes and one (#18) on longer rolling more Sand Hills like terrain. Without all that movement going on in the surrounds, the greens would be ridiculously out of place. Same w/ the fwy rolls and movement.

I know on the other thread JC couldn't be more wrong about the origins of #7. He's correct about it's quality, just not about it being one of those that just jumped out at the boys. Such as #8 and 18.

[kconway]

do these greens compare to greens on any links or sandbelt courses?

[Michael]

I'm only able to give my opinion.

The greens and everything else at BN is inspired by the surrounding terrain. 17 chop hills holes and one (#18) on longer rolling more Sand Hills like terrain. Without all that movement going on in the surrounds, the greens would be ridiculously out of place. Same w/ the fwy rolls and movement.

I know on the other thread JC couldn't be more wrong about the origins of #7. He's correct about it's quality, just not about it being one of those that just jumped out at the boys. Such as #8 and 18.

 Adam, question..

 when these greens were designed/constructed was changing hole locations as common as today? one would have to think such undulations would kind of limit your options.

Michael

[Adam Clayman]

Common as today? I think everyone associated with the project who just read that, had a huge dose of deep satisfaction.
 Michael, Ballyneal was built less than 4 years ago. It was not designed to play at light speed day in day out. Although, when speeds are up over 9.5-10 pin positions need to be carefully placed. Either way, when they are slow or fast, the ability to be creative, using the slopes effectively is, in the words of one Harvard graduate, funner.

Kelly, My guess is No!
 From what I know, from what I've heard others say, BN's greens (and the whole) is a most unique golfing experience.

IMO,Tom married several aspects of many types of golf to push his art to this envelope. I know from hearing about Rock Creek, he was challenged by the scale of the place. BN has so much going on, he could almost not go wrong. But, I suspect RC was a bigger (pardon the pun) challenge to the artist.

[Michael]

Common as today? I think everyone associated with the project who just read that, had a huge dose of deep satisfaction.
 Michael, Ballyneal was built less than 4 years ago. It was not designed to play at light speed day in day out. Although, when speeds are up over 9.5-10 pin positions need to be carefully placed. Either way, when they are slow or fast, the ability to be creative, using the slopes effectively is, in the words of one Harvard graduate, funner.

Kelly, My guess is No!
 From what I know, from what I've heard others say, BN's greens (and the whole) is a most unique golfing experience.

IMO,Tom married several aspects of many types of golf to push his art to this envelope. I know from hearing about Rock Creek, he was challenged by the scale of the place. BN has so much going on, he could almost not go wrong. But, I suspect RC was a bigger (pardon the pun) challenge to the artist.

 Sorry Adam,
 Having failed to recognised the course name, I wrongly assumed the picture above was of "Ballyneal"...which does sound kind of UK-ish


Michael.

[Wyatt Halliday]

IMO,Tom married several aspects of many types of golf to push his art to this envelope. I know from hearing about Rock Creek, he was challenged by the scale of the place. BN has so much going on, he could almost not go wrong. But, I suspect RC was a bigger (pardon the pun) challenge to the artist.

Adam,
For me the greens at Ballyneal were THE most unique experience I have come across.

One of my many favorite aspects of Ballyneal is the expansive feel without the loss of intimacy. For example, the length and breadth of holes 2,6, & 10 followed by the coziness of the 3rd, 7th, and 11th holes. No doubt the location and topography are key, but the architecture maximizes the effect.

[Adam Clayman]

Michael, That pic is of Sitwell Park (sp?) (if I know my posters). A Dr. A. Mackenzie course that I know little about.
 I suspect there's a little truth in Mr. Moss' interpretation.

Wyatt, that's very insightful, I never thought if it it those terms. I've been stuck on the sequence of 7 and 8 being out done by the stretch of holes 10-18. 14 grows and grows in it's varied playing characteristics. The other day in a south wind, it was the most exposed hole on the course.  6 was also supremely challenging. The ironic and most telling part is that my partners were much more affected by the conditions than I. Proving to me that Ballyneal is best played repeatedly.   

[Ted Kramer]

After 27 holes at Ballyneal I feel pretty confident in saying that I have barely experienced the greens at all. . . There is so much movement, so many rolls, bumps, hills, slopes, etc. that I'd imagine you'd have to play 50 rounds out there before you had a good feel for what those greens are about.

I thought the greens were amazing.
The most fun, the best playing, most interesting, imaginative greens I've ever seen. And to be honest, it isn't even close.

-Ted

[Wyatt Halliday]

Adam,

At the tee, a strong south would have the wind blowing down and from the right, no?

Depending on the strength of the wind, the wise approach may be 2-3 three putts from the fairway right of the centerline bunker. Trying to hit and hold an iron downwind to that green is nightmare inducing.

[Kalen Braley]

I think the best 1-2 punch on the course in terms of fantastic holes is #7 and 8.  Two excellent holes that I could play again, and again, and again.

The entire 7th green complex is like nothing I've ever seen and it works very well.  If Ballyneal were to host a tourney, I'd probably camp out on the dune to the right of the green and watch em play that hole...and I doubt I would tire of it.

[Kyle Henderson]

Ballyneal's greens are probably the best set of 18 that I've had the pleasure to play upon.

What I REALLY love about them is pressure they place upon/the wide variety they allow for and sometimes dictate from one's short game.

It's almost more fun to miss greens on purpose to see if you can still hole out in 2 (...okay 3 or 4) shots.

[Jim Nugent]

After 27 holes at Ballyneal I feel pretty confident in saying that I have barely experienced the greens at all. . . There is so much movement, so many rolls, bumps, hills, slopes, etc. that I'd imagine you'd have to play 50 rounds out there before you had a good feel for what those greens are about.

I thought the greens were amazing.
The most fun, the best playing, most interesting, imaginative greens I've ever seen. And to be honest, it isn't even close.

-Ted

Ted, putting you on the spot:  how do you like Ballyneal overall compared to Shinnecock Hills? 

[Kyle Henderson]

One of my favorite images of a Ballyneal putting surface (#8). The green's contours match up amazingly  well with those found in the fairway and the surrounding dunes.

[Chip Gaskins]

[Adam Clayman]

pic no more

[Bart Bradley]

A close up from 2 weeks ago...untouched photography:




Very difficult hole position...nearly impossible from above the hole.

Bart

[Ian_L]

Was RGD given more freedom with the greens at Ballyneal than Pacific Dunes?  I've never been to either, but it looks like Ballyneal's are much bolder.  Or was it just that stronger contours fit Ballyneal's terrain better? 

[Jim Colton]

Two weeks...I'll be there again in two weeks.  These pictures have me drooling.

[Adam Clayman]

Ian, I highly doubt the retail golfer would like these. 

However, I cannot answer your question with other than conjecture.

[Wayne Freeman]

  The greens at Ballyneal are sure to generate lots of discussion and controversy.  From what I understand they were not built to run 10-11 and when I played there in June,  they were at least that fast, making many of the pin placements virtually impossible.  At 8-9  I think it would be maybe as fun a place to putt as anywhere.  With faster speeds, I think it is safe to say that some of the greens are way over the top.  However, the overall experience there is one of the most unique in all the U.S.  It is a totally seamless golf course and without any tee markers and numerous teeing areas it flows in an almost endless potential array of holes.  Aside from the 18 hole course that is laid out,  you can play loops and invent other holes to your heart's content. 
   To me, Shinnecock is more defined and not really wild in any way like Ballyneal.  BTW,  I actually liked BN more than Sand Hills and think it may possibly be the better course. 

[Ed Oden]

A close up from 2 weeks ago...untouched photography:




Very difficult hole position...nearly impossible from above the hole.

Bart

Bart, thanks for reminding me.  Its not that easy from the back left bunker either!  Here are two more, one from in front...

...and another from behind.