Ballyneal Greens

[Jerry Kluger]

Carl: I just played Chambers Bay and I have played Ballyneal probably 10 times and both courses have greens with significant movement but they really aren't the same.  I have been able to read the greens at Ballyneal without much trouble - the contours are severe but pretty straight forward.  CB has some significant contours but also has some very subtle contours where putts will have two or three breaks and it really takes a great deal of local knowledge to feel comfortable with a read.  The greens at Ballyneal are my favorites for sheer fun on the other hand, I think the greens at CB will really frustrate the players at the US Open.  I didn't watch last night but I wonder how many times the Ams were befuddled by where their putts wound up never mind their shots into the greens. 

[Richard Choi]

Jerry, nobody at the US Am are giving 3 foot putts during match play. That should tell you something about the greens at CB

The greens at Ballyneal have much more and severe internal countours (that probably makes them easier to read as well). They are my absolute favorite greens along with Old Mac. The contours at CB are big, but they roll more gently across the entire putting surface.

[Jerry Kluger]

Richard: I think guys who play at that level expect to make some 10'-12' putts but they need someone like Raymond to give them the reads or they could be way off as those gentle contours can really get frustrating.  I wouldn't give a 3 footer at either course unless it was dead flat.

[Richard Choi]

Jerry, I saw Raymond on Dirksen's bag. Too bad he still got drubbed on round 1.

[Scott Szabo]

The 12th green is one of my favorites, as the approach shot varies dramatically from day to day, and requires great precision, with a great reward for success.  It's also one of those greens where you don't see the result until you get there.

Let me add the 2nd green as one of my favorites.  I really enjoy the 2nd hole.  First, you bomb the tee shot as far as you can down the hill, usually leaving a long iron/fairway wood second shot.  The green is large, and is relatively gentle, with a few severe slopes.  Because of the large green and long approach, the hole yields a lot of long putts, which have their charm.  The green is usually firm, fast and dry as well.

It was hard to see how the 2nd hole would shape up during construction, and I believe Tom, Bruce and the guys had some concern about the final result, but over the years it has become one of my favorite holes on the course.  While building the course, they finished the first three holes last, and one of the great excitements about watching the development was seeing how the walk from the first tee to the fourth tee materialized.

John,

Be careful of praising the 2nd hole too highly.  I gave it rave reviews a while back (it is one of my favorites on the course as well) and got my hand slapped by quite a few people, the architect himself included.   

Scott

[Kenny Baer]

I love the greens at BN but I can't help but thinking it was a missed opportunity because of the choice of grass.  I agree that they couldn't consistently run at 11 but with the fescue it seems that is not an option except for possibly a short window with perfect growing conditions.  I played Commonground the day after I played BN and the greens at CG were perfect; they are pretty wild in there own right and were running around 9.  It seems to me with Bent you have the choice to have them as fast as you desire during the season; with the fescue you are completely dependent on weather.

Do you think they will ever change the grass, IMHO it wasn't just that they were slow it was that they seemed unhealthy.

I played Sand Hills, BN, Prairie Dunes, and Common Ground in the same trip and came away feeling that BN was the best layout of the bunch mainly because of the greens and the green surrounds but because of the choice of grass it was harder to love; if that makes any sense.

[Mac Plumart]

Grass is without question my weakest area in regards to golf architecture...and that is saying something!!   

I can't answer the question, but I can say that I thought the greens were in great shape when I played there and they were rolling pretty darn fast.  I loved the way the fairways and greens came together seemlessly.

But like I said, I don't know jack about grass...so take my comments for what they are worth...not much!!   

[Mike Demetriou]

Mac,
ditto your post as well. I know nothing about grass, but I would note that two of the courses with what I regard as having among the best conditions I've ever played are fescue greens. BN and Kingsley.

The greens at BN were in such good shape and were so firm that it was almost beyond belief.

[Tim Bert]

Mac,
ditto your post as well. I know nothing about grass, but I would note that two of the courses with what I regard as having among the best conditions I've ever played are fescue greens. BN and Kingsley.

The greens at BN were in such good shape and were so firm that it was almost beyond belief.

I realize should know this but are the greens at Kingsley really fescue?  I know the rest of the course is fescue but for some reason I thought the greens transitioned to another grass - maybe bent?  I guess it has been too long if I can't answer this myself.

[George Freeman]

Kenny thinks the greens were "a missed opportunity" planted as fescue, but Mike thinks their conditioning was "almost beyond belief" good.  There is a disconnect here, unless you two played when the course was in completely different conditions. 

If the greens at BN play anywhere near the way the greens at the Kingsley Club regularly play, I would think they're definitely doing something right....

[George Freeman]

Mac,
ditto your post as well. I know nothing about grass, but I would note that two of the courses with what I regard as having among the best conditions I've ever played are fescue greens. BN and Kingsley.

The greens at BN were in such good shape and were so firm that it was almost beyond belief.

I realize should know this but are the greens at Kingsley really fescue?  I know the rest of the course is fescue but for some reason I thought the greens transitioned to another grass - maybe bent?  I guess it has been too long if I can't answer this myself.

Tim,

The greens at the Kingsley Club are bent.

[Jeff Tang]

Kenny, I've played Ballyneal when the greens have been very quick and also when they've been a bit on the slow side.  It was a bit frustrating to play the course with the greens slower because you can't use the slopes as much and I don't think the course plays the way it was intended to when they're running on the slow side.  When quick they are pure and I love putting them.

That said, I can't imagine the greens being anything but fescue.  For some reason anything other than the grass they are would seem out of place.  The greens blend into the surrounding hills so well and seem to be an extension of the fairways that going to bent or some other type of grass would be very strange to me.  I hope they never change the grass there, I can't imagine they ever would, just my opinion.

[Scott Szabo]

Anything but fescue would indeed be out of place.  There were a couple of times during the Yucca that I could honestly not tell whether or not my ball was on the green or on the fairway - they blend together so nicely. 

In its infancy the greens were a bit on the slow side and the slopes couldn't be used as they were intended, but not now.  The course is in magnificent shape and quite fun to play.  I don't know what they were running at the Yucca but they played almost perfectly - quite firm and they rolled true.  I would think that's how they were intended to play all along.

[Tom_Doak]

I played at Kingsley yesterday, their greens are bent grass.

I have always thought that fescue greens could be terrific in their own right but only in isolation.  They are nearly all fescue based in the UK and after a couple of days people are fine with them.  All fescue in Bandon and few complain.  Members and guests who stay  a couple of nights at Ballyneal love the greens.  People that stop through on the way back from Sand Hills, though, can't adjust to the speed and textural differential in their first round, and condemn the same surfaces.

Fescue greens can get quite fast when it's dry and they have had a bit of topdressing.  I've played Pacific Dunes when the greens were 11+ and you don't want to see that too often.  But the speed does vary more depending on weather, and there are a lot of Americans who just won't accept that.

The bad thing about bent greens with fescue fairways is that the greens tend to get softer over time, so the bounce on approach shots is different depending on whether you land two feet short or two feet on.  Plus, the bent creeps out into the chipping areas which makes it much trickier to putt from off the greens.

[Bart Bradley]

I played at Kingsley yesterday, their greens are bent grass.

I have always thought that fescue greens could be terrific in their own right but only in isolation.  They are nearly all fescue based in the UK and after a couple of days people are fine with them.  All fescue in Bandon and few complain.  Members and guests who stay  a couple of nights at Ballyneal love the greens.  People that stop through on the way back from Sand Hills, though, can't adjust to the speed and textural differential in their first round, and condemn the same surfaces.

Fescue greens can get quite fast when it's dry and they have had a bit of topdressing.  I've played Pacific Dunes when the greens were 11+ and you don't want to see that too often.  But the speed does vary more depending on weather, and there are a lot of Americans who just won't accept that.

The bad thing about bent greens with fescue fairways is that the greens tend to get softer over time, so the bounce on approach shots is different depending on whether you land two feet short or two feet on.  Plus, the bent creeps out into the chipping areas which makes it much trickier to putt from off the greens.

Tom:

Very interesting and insightful...thanks.  But here is the question:  In the rather harsh and varied environment of Holyoke, CO, what percentage of the playing season can the fescue be at its peak condition?  It seems that the very harsh cold winters may cause the greens to suffer a rough start in the early season (and Ballyneal must have a main playing season of no more than 6-7 months).

Bart

[Adam Clayman]

I just played Ballyneal for the first time in a real competition. It was a ryder cup format 3 day event. To say the greens were exceptional, all 3 days, would be an understatement.

For those who have opined about them looking poor, I can see where a layman could come to that flawed conclusion. The different types of grasses creates that matted look, which can be a throw off for those accustomed to bent. It does not mean they are sick or in poor shape.

[Tim Bert]

I played at Kingsley yesterday, their greens are bent grass.

I have always thought that fescue greens could be terrific in their own right but only in isolation.  They are nearly all fescue based in the UK and after a couple of days people are fine with them.  All fescue in Bandon and few complain.  Members and guests who stay  a couple of nights at Ballyneal love the greens.  People that stop through on the way back from Sand Hills, though, can't adjust to the speed and textural differential in their first round, and condemn the same surfaces.

Fescue greens can get quite fast when it's dry and they have had a bit of topdressing.  I've played Pacific Dunes when the greens were 11+ and you don't want to see that too often.  But the speed does vary more depending on weather, and there are a lot of Americans who just won't accept that.

The bad thing about bent greens with fescue fairways is that the greens tend to get softer over time, so the bounce on approach shots is different depending on whether you land two feet short or two feet on.  Plus, the bent creeps out into the chipping areas which makes it much trickier to putt from off the greens.

Tom - two questions:

1. Are the greens at Bandon entirely fescue (overlooking any poa)?  When we were at Chambers this spring leading up to the opening at Old Macdonald, I had a very proud Chambers Bay shuttle driver going on and on about how it was all fescue surface and that it was one of the only courses in the states with 100% fescue, both fairways and greens.  I said something to the effect of "We're headed to Bandon tomorrow, so we are playing two of the locations on this trip" and he said something to the effect of "the greens at Bandon are a hybrid - they aren't pure fescue."  I thought that odd, but I wasn't informed enough and decided it wouldn't be much use to argue with the shuttle driver on the way down to the first tee so I just left it at that.  Your post just reminded me of that exchange.

2. Have you noticed this fescue / bent impact at Kingsley - since you were just there yesterday?  Two years ago I thought the transition was fabulous and found no ill effect when I tried to bump it, putt it or whatever.  Just wondering if your comment was a result of conditioning that you saw at Kingsley.  I'll be there in a week for a few days, so I can form my own opinion, but I'm hoping it is exactly as I found it two years ago.

[John Kirk]

I can answer this one.

I believe that the Bandon Dunes grassing scheme has evolved.  The first course, Bandon Dunes, augmented the fescue with about 8% colonial bent.  At Pacific Dunes, the bent percentage was reduced to about 4%.  Bandon rails and Old Macdonald are 100% fescue.

Please correct if wrong.  Thanks.

[Tim Pitner]

I love the greens at BN but I can't help but thinking it was a missed opportunity because of the choice of grass.  I agree that they couldn't consistently run at 11 but with the fescue it seems that is not an option except for possibly a short window with perfect growing conditions.  I played Commonground the day after I played BN and the greens at CG were perfect; they are pretty wild in there own right and were running around 9.  It seems to me with Bent you have the choice to have them as fast as you desire during the season; with the fescue you are completely dependent on weather.

Do you think they will ever change the grass, IMHO it wasn't just that they were slow it was that they seemed unhealthy.

I played Sand Hills, BN, Prairie Dunes, and Common Ground in the same trip and came away feeling that BN was the best layout of the bunch mainly because of the greens and the green surrounds but because of the choice of grass it was harder to love; if that makes any sense.

I'm not a grass guy either and I haven't had the pleasure to play Sand Hills or Prairie Dunes, but I couldn't disagree more.  I've never putted on surfaces as true as Ballyneal and the Bandon courses.  And the perfect blending of the fairways and greens at Ballyneal (and Bandon) sets it apart from many courses and gives it a true links feel.  It's one of my favorite aspects of the course. 

[Jim Colton]

As somebody who's going to play around 45 rounds at Ballyneal this year between May, June, July, (2 holes in August), and September, personally I'm thrilled that the greens are different throughout the year.  They are different from day to day.  That's part of the fun...trying to figure it out.

I was lucky enough to play Crystal Downs last year and witnessed our host put on a short-game clinic I've never seen before.  He just KNEW those greens.  I was going to Ballyneal a few weeks later and came to the conclusion that I needed to be that guy out at BN.  Then we got there and the greens were running 11-12 and all prior learnings were completely out the window.  I'd still like to be that guy, but it's probably going to take 20 years instead of 2.

[Tim Bert]

As somebody who's going to play around 45 rounds at Ballyneal this year

That is crazy.  I recall a conversation last year when you weren't sure you were going to get to spend enough time out there.  Problem solved.  I guess the full week really helped.

[Scott Szabo]

Do the greens really change that much throughout the year?  I can see they might depending on the weather, but I think their playability would be relatively constant from May through October. 

Jim, 45 rounds of golf in one year at BN?  I would think that number may only be surpassed by one other local member.

[Tom_Doak]

Tim Bert,

John Kirk has the grasses at Bandon right, I think. 

The grassing scheme for Bandon Dunes was a large committee decision -- test plots, turf professors, seed salesmen, etc. -- and they decided on a hybrid of fescue and Colonial bent.  Some thought pure fescue was unsustainable long term, others that it would all be Poa annua in five years anyway.

We suggested a blend of fine fescues for Pacific Dunes, without the Colonial; but the first course was so highly praised at that point that we did not fight for it too hard.  We thought it might all be Poa annua by now, if they got it wrong, but mostly, we didn't want the job to start with an argument.

I believe that Bandon Trails started out with a little bit of Colonial bent in the mix, or at least they said they were going to, but that Ken Nice eventually planted at least some of the greens to 100% fescue knowing that he could always add the Colonial later.  Everyone liked how those turned out, and that they didn't have to spray the fescue for take all patch which was a problem with the Colonial.  So, Old Macdonald is grasses to 100% fescue.

Ballyneal is NOT 100% fescue according to Dave Wilber's specs, but the fescue dominates the mix because they keep it lean and dry.

And yes, I did notice the creeping bent making it harder to putt from off the green at Kingsley a couple of times ... Luckily more for my opponents (who don't know to look for that stuff) than for me. 

[Tom_Doak]

Oh, and for whoever asked the question, fescue is a very slow starter in the spring compared to bent grass ... it's an issue throughout European courses as well as in Bandon and at Ballyneal.  But, the golf season at Sand Hills doesn't start until Memorial Day anyway.

[Adam Clayman]

Scott, They can play differently intra-day, let alone throughout the year. It's a function of moisture content, wind, heat, as well as the daily maintenance practices.

If anyone wants to see the effect of bent grass, creeping onto the collars, Wild Horse is the perfect study. Originally designed with Fescue collars, that played deliciously firm, between bent grass greens, and low mow bluegrass fairways. There's hardly any fescue remaining on the collars. The playability is very noticeable. I'd bet, even to those who hadn't been there before, but can tell the difference when soft spongy bent grass affects a balls bounce and roll.