Ballyneal Greens

[Ian_L]

Ian, I highly doubt the retail golfer would like these. 

However, I cannot answer your question with other than conjecture.

That's what I was thinking.  PD's green sites seem to me to me a bit more open, so could it be that they thought ripples in the greens wouldn't fit in as well?  Again, I've never been to either so I could be way off base.

[Kalen Braley]

More Ballyneal Greens.

I didn't get a shot of 13 green, but you could put some nasty tucked pins on that one.

12 Green:



From Behind, good luck at all the undulation:



17 green from behind:

[Tim Bert]

13 for Kalen

[Tom_Doak]

Ian L:  The land for Ballyneal was much more undulating than Pacific Dunes, so it shouldn't be too big a surprise that we wound up with more heavily contoured greens.  But, yes, we did have more freedom to design wilder greens at Ballyneal. 

It is well documented that Mr. Keiser is not nearly as big a fan of wild greens as any of the architects he's worked with in Bandon; but, he's let us build some good ones because he sees how much attention we are paying to how they work.  BTW, I would dispute Wayne Freeman's suggestion that the greens at Ballyneal are unplayable at 11 on the Stimp ... I would prefer they weren't that fast, and if they are you have to be much more careful of where you leave yourself, but I think that's fair game.

[Matt MacIver]

A close up from 2 weeks ago...untouched photography:




Very difficult hole position...nearly impossible from above the hole.

Bart

WHERE exactly is "above" the hole?!?!?

If pictures are worth a 1000 words...Ballyneal remains at the top of the list based on these!

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

All of these psots just increase my excitement for my visit next week...thanks gents.

[Ted Kramer]

After 27 holes at Ballyneal I feel pretty confident in saying that I have barely experienced the greens at all. . . There is so much movement, so many rolls, bumps, hills, slopes, etc. that I'd imagine you'd have to play 50 rounds out there before you had a good feel for what those greens are about.

I thought the greens were amazing.
The most fun, the best playing, most interesting, imaginative greens I've ever seen. And to be honest, it isn't even close.

-Ted

Ted, putting you on the spot:  how do you like Ballyneal overall compared to Shinnecock Hills? 

Funny you should ask . . .
I just met my buddy who belongs to Shinnecock for a few drinks on Friday.
And I told him that while Shinnecock had always been mentioned as my "clear cut #1", I'd now had a change of heart.

I'll try to answer as straight forward as I can.

Shinnecock is no longer my clear cut #1.
Ballyneal is, without a question in my mind, worthy of being mentioned at the same level.
And it is the only course that I've played that I'll say that about.

One more round of golf to play in my life, Shinnecock or Ballyneal?
Ballyneal

10 rounds to split between the two?
5-5

One course to play for the rest of my life, travel location not included?
Ballyneal

One course to play for the rest of my life, everything included?
Shinnecock

Best par 3 between both courses?
Shinnecock 11 v Ballyneal 15 - wow thats tough . . .

Best par 4 between them?
Shinnecock any of them v Ballyneal #6 - Ballyneal, maybe my personal favorite par 4 ever - from the way back tee.

Best par 5 between them
Shinnecock #16 v Ballyneal any of them - Shinnecock.

I love both courses and I hope I answered the question.

-Ted

[Jim Nugent]

Ted, I remembered how much you love Shinnecock.  To put Ballyneal in the same league puts it among the world's top courses.   

Real interested to see where Ballyneal stands in the next round of golf mag ratings.  Rock Creek, too.  Bet Bally rises a lot higher... and Rock Creek debuts high. 

[Adam Clayman]

Jim, I don' think their rankings will ever equate to just how good they are.

Many people do not appreciate that Tom is creating vastly different and very sophisticated stuff.

I have not seen enough of the world's best courses to judge, but, BN is unlike anything I've heard about or read about within these walls. Unless you count the principles inherent in the ideal golf course, to fellows like Mackenzie, Jones, Behr etc.

[Ted Kramer]

Ted, I remembered how much you love Shinnecock.  To put Ballyneal in the same league puts it among the world's top courses.   

Real interested to see where Ballyneal stands in the next round of golf mag ratings.  Rock Creek, too.  Bet Bally rises a lot higher... and Rock Creek debuts high. 

Full disclosure . . .
I haven't played a number of the highest rated courses in the world and I haven't ever played over-seas.
From what I've seen, Ballyneal is Top Shelf.
Better than:
Pebble
Spyglass
Pac Dunes
Bandon Dunes
Ridgewood
Bethpage Black

Same league as:
Shinnecock

-Ted

[Ian Andrew]

If I were to guess I would say Maxwell and Prairie Dunes as a possible influence. I certainly love what I see. I saw the work at Rock Creek this week and I can see similarities in some of your photos - I know I really liked those greens. I'm hoping to see Ballyneal with Bruce in November.

[Jim Nugent]

Jim, I don' think their rankings will ever equate to just how good they are.

Perhaps not.  Still, I predict Ballyneal rises, and Rock Creek makes the top 100 lists. 

[Tony_Chapman]

Ballyneal's greens were some of the most fun I've had on a golf course. The 12th particulary stood out to me. Played with my brother on Saturday is a 25-30 mph wind from the NW -- and I can't imagine that the course is any more difficult that with that wind. The last three par-3's for me were a pair of 165-yard hyrbrids and a driver on the 15th (from the back tee) -- 17 and 18 were unbelievably long, too. But, so much fun driving it up the shoot on 9 to within 30 yards of the green and doing the same on 14. My driver on 7 got up in the air a little bit, didn't clear the hill to the right of the bunker and I was left with a punch 5-iron from 135 yards. So much for the 3-wood, wedge hole I had heard about!! 

Tom Doak, thanks for Ballyneal. It was great fun.

For four hours on the way home, my brother and I debated the merits of BN and SH. I feel it's a useless exercise -- they are both wonderfully awesome. Why should I have to pick a "best" one.

[John Kirk]

Full disclosure . . .
I haven't played a number of the highest rated courses in the world and I haven't ever played over-seas.
From what I've seen, Ballyneal is Top Shelf.
Better than:
Pebble
Spyglass
Pac Dunes
Bandon Dunes
Ridgewood
Bethpage Black

Same league as:
Shinnecock

-Ted

He's right, you know.  I've never played a course better than Ballyneal.

The inspiration for Ballyneal's greens?  A handful of men, away from their loved ones, building a course on the prairie, and daydreaming about a woman: the curve of her back and hips, the gentle slopes of her shoulders, and the soft caress of her voice and touch.

Damn!  I've been away too long, checking out the latest inspiration.  Goin' home to see my baby tonight.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

John,
Thank you for that erotic description.
As I am headed that way next week, it sounds like I can leave the porn at home

Seriuosly though I know exactly what you mean...I have often compared golf courses with moemts of passion...now I know it is not just me...

[Mac Plumart]

Bump...

this topic is too good not to bring back up.  These greens are a big part of the reason I smiled the entire round at Ballyneal.

Am I crazy to think 7 was the best green? 

[JC Jones]

mac,

The saddleback, bowl green reminds me of the pictures of Dismal River.

[Mac Plumart]

I must like them on a deeply subliminal basis. 

[Daryl David]

Bump...

this topic is too good not to bring back up.  These greens are a big part of the reason I smiled the entire round at Ballyneal.

Am I crazy to think 7 was the best green? 

The 7th is good, but the 12th is the love of my life.

[Mac Plumart]

12 Green:








12 ate my lunch!!!  In the junk off the tee, long and behind the green on the approach.  I thought my chip was MONEY, but the ball trickled and trickled and trickled right down that front slope just to the right of that bunker on the picture.  Tried to chip back up to the green, but left it a bit short and that bad boy rolled all the way back down to me.  End up with a triple!  I cursed Mr. Doak numerous times!!!   

Great green, great hole!

[Mike Benham]

... 4 different people shaped green sites at Ballyneal, which is why there is such great variety ...

Variety?

or Inconsistency?

[Adam Clayman]

Depends on who you played with, or want to.

[Bill_McBride]

Bump...

this topic is too good not to bring back up.  These greens are a big part of the reason I smiled the entire round at Ballyneal.

Am I crazy to think 7 was the best green? 

The 7th is good, but the 12th is the love of my life.

You and me, 12 was my favorite with all those ridges and bowls.   

[John Kirk]

The 12th green is one of my favorites, as the approach shot varies dramatically from day to day, and requires great precision, with a great reward for success.  It's also one of those greens where you don't see the result until you get there.

Let me add the 2nd green as one of my favorites.  I really enjoy the 2nd hole.  First, you bomb the tee shot as far as you can down the hill, usually leaving a long iron/fairway wood second shot.  The green is large, and is relatively gentle, with a few severe slopes.  Because of the large green and long approach, the hole yields a lot of long putts, which have their charm.  The green is usually firm, fast and dry as well.

It was hard to see how the 2nd hole would shape up during construction, and I believe Tom, Bruce and the guys had some concern about the final result, but over the years it has become one of my favorite holes on the course.  While building the course, they finished the first three holes last, and one of the great excitements about watching the development was seeing how the walk from the first tee to the fourth tee materialized.

[Carl Rogers]

Comment 1:
When or if do any of you think that the big golf powers that be will ever consider holding a big tournament over sufraces such as these?  Or are they at this point in time just "too too far out there" and exist only in a very limited, special and boutique circumstance?

How do the surfaces at Chambers Bay or Erin Hills compare?

Comment 2:
Back to Whistling Straits .... Given the wild untamed (even if manufactured) landscape.... It seems to me that one of the visual problems of the course is that those kind of movement of the overall landscape can not exist on the greens given the "need" to have them at Pro level speeds.  Thus the landscape as a whole has a very incongruous feel to it.

Good observation?? Wrong?? Kind of right??