Another noobie question for the Architects here

[Michael]

Forgive me for asking what would seem to be stupid questions...but I'm not a designer...

 Bear with me..Please

 you have "X" land to build a course on...you have figured out the basics on routing and are clearing the land..

 when do you ...or do you.. actually hit golf balls to the areas that you will turn into fairways/greens? Is it so planed out that you don't need to? I have seen old photos of Bobby Jones hitting ball on the unfinished Augusta National course so it kind of perked my interest.

 Thanks

[Adam Clayman]

Michael, Do not the name calling Bozo's, anywhere, tell you asked a stupid question.

My sense is that balls should be hit before choosing the routing and clearing the land. But, that's only possible on site specific situations that allow for balls to be hit.

[Michael]

Thanks Adam...

 I must admit that I wondered if the practice of hitting real golf balls on a unfinished course had been replaced by a computer program... much like everything else seems to be

[Adam Clayman]

Michael, Do they still use computers to design courses? I was under the impression that the only great courses being built today are designed in the dirt. But, unlike you, I make stupid answers.

[Michael]

I realize now that it's not my mediocre golf game that is at fault..just that I play courses built by demonically clever designers

[Brad Klein]

It varies. I'm told Crenshaw never once hit a shot during the design, construction and grow in of Colorado GC. Out at Old Macdonald, shots were struck when we wanted to see if a particular hill could be carried form the tee without undue stress -- and how the ball rolled out on the other side. It all depends upon what you're trying to see and feel. Most of the times, an experienced designer doesn't really need to hit shots, except to have fun, or to test various shots for how players of different skills might deal with a given situation. But it doesn't take place until you've done at least the rough grading and probably before you've done the fine feature finishing or any grassing.

[Michael]

It varies. I'm told Crenshaw never once hit a shot during the design, construction and grow in of Colorado GC. Out at Old Macdonald, shots were struck when we wanted to see if a particular hill could be carried form the tee without undue stress -- and how the ball rolled out on the other side. It all depends upon what you're trying to see and feel. Most of the times, an experienced designer doesn't really need to hit shots, except to have fun, or to test various shots for how players of different skills might deal with a given situation. But it doesn't take place until you've done at least the rough grading and probably before you've done the fine feature finishing or any grassing.

 That begs the question..does the performance of such shots figure into the final shaping of the course? say if it looks like most balls landing at Point "X" roll off to the left too much, would the designer consider a berm of some sort to check this? or a bunker... to discourage landing at Point "X" in the first place?

[Bob_Huntley]

Lewis Lapham did it at Cypress.

Bob

[Garland Bayley]

That begs the question..does the performance of such shots figure into the final shaping of the course? say if it looks like most balls landing at Point "X" roll off to the left too much, would the designer consider a berm of some sort to check this? or a bunker... to discourage landing at Point "X" in the first place?

Shaping? We're all minimalists here. What does shaping have to do with it?

Of course the placement of tees a greens can also be used to determine where the terrain affects shot performance.

[George Pazin]

bumping for JakaB and the board architects - I'd recommend modifying your title to ask them specifically.

[Adam Clayman]

I'm not sure what George means, for Jaka B, but Michael, "consider a berm"? what do you mean by that?

[PThomas]

Lewis Lapham did it at Cypress.

Bob

and i believe a woman hit at least 1 ball on 1 hole there...

[Mike Nuzzo]

A friend at Lockheed once asked a very conservative analyst if they thought he should have the properties of aluminum tested.... (they haven't changed in a very long time)

It is pretty well defined what kind of yardages a player can hit.
It is the pitches and putts that are more critical - and nothing reacts like a green until it is grown-in - or else we'd be playing on that.

I hit some dirt shots, but only to see if "I" could clear the lake - not someone else - and it is fun.
If you can see the balls bouncing around in your head you wouldn't need to at all.

And yes computers can be used to a great extent, but not to do everything.

P.S.
I'm with Adam - good question - it was obviously a good question from Brad to Ben too.
Cheers

[Tom_Doak]

We hit balls in the dirt sometimes, but mostly just for fun.  The one thing you'd REALLY like to know is how much the ball is going to roll out in a certain situation and a certain wind, and unfortunately that's the one thing you CAN'T find out in the dirt.

We do know generally how far most people are going to carry their tee shots.

Actually, though, I think more architects would benefit from hitting more balls in the dirt, and from watching others do it, too.  I must say I've been around too many architects who look at their holes only from the "landing area stake" in ... as if every player's tee shot wound up somewhere near the ideal landing area!  If they hit more balls in the dirt, perhaps they would start looking at how their approach shot might play from 40 yards short of the landing stake, where most people are coming from.

[Michael]

I'm not sure what George means, for Jaka B, but Michael, "consider a berm"? what do you mean by that?

 I'm not sure of the correct term but..if a projected fairway had a pronounced tilt that would cause shots to roll down and/or off even if well struck..would the designers put in place a hump?berm?running parallel along the lower side of the landing area to kind of keep it somewhat level? again I'm not saying all fairways should be pool table flat..But I have played courses where in July/August when they get baked hard balls just bounce and scoot down and off the fairway.

[Michael]

bumping for JakaB and the board architects - I'd recommend modifying your title to ask them specifically.

 Done ...as requested.....

[Jeff_Brauer]

Michael,

Put me in the hit them for fun category.  As noted, roll outs are important, but can't really be determined. The best way to do that is to take a digital level out to courses you have designed previously or are playing.  If a cross slope kicks the ball too far, measure it and make a mental note.  Balls really don't roll out anywhere in dirt.

Short version, professional gca's should kind of know what basic slopes work in the situation you describe beforehand!  Although, there was a recent thread -What happens when a kickplate doesn't kick - which describes how design intentions can get messed up in wet conditions, inappropriate (for that feature) maintenance, etc.

When I designed Colbert Hills, we wanted to play a dirt round with the crew so I went down to a local golf shop, looking for used and cheap balls for about 2 dozen guys (some who don't play) to blast around.  I picked up all the used balls, and then saw some $1 balls and went back to get those. Then I saw some more, etc., and ended up buying about 6 dozen.  Went to pay and the guy behind the counter asks, "Wow, just how bad a golfer are you?"

[Michael]

Michael,

Put me in the hit them for fun category.  As noted, roll outs are important, but can't really be determined. The best way to do that is to take a digital level out to courses you have designed previously or are playing.  If a cross slope kicks the ball too far, measure it and make a mental note.  Balls really don't roll out anywhere in dirt.

Short version, professional gca's should kind of know what basic slopes work in the situation you describe beforehand!  Although, there was a recent thread -What happens when a kickplate doesn't kick - which describes how design intentions can get messed up in wet conditions, inappropriate (for that feature) maintenance, etc.

When I designed Colbert Hills, we wanted to play a dirt round with the crew so I went down to a local golf shop, looking for used and cheap balls for about 2 dozen guys (some who don't play) to blast around.  I picked up all the used balls, and then saw some $1 balls and went back to get those. Then I saw some more, etc., and ended up buying about 6 dozen.  Went to pay and the guy behind the counter asks, "Wow, just how bad a golfer are you?"

 too funny...High round buys?

[Adam Clayman]

Mike Cirba. The only problem with both yours and Michaels suggestion is how that berm would flow against the natural. Typically this creates an eyesore and a coverage problem. 

[Adam Clayman]

I'm sorry. That was Michael Cote not Cirba. Lazy morning eye.

[Michael]

Mike Cirba. The only problem with both yours and Michaels suggestion is how that berm would flow against the natural. Typically this creates an eyesore and a coverage problem. 

 Wouldn't that depend on the other natural features of the course? I could see if the rest of the course was desert flat..

[Adam Clayman]

Exactly, it would depend on the site. But even on a less than flat site considering a berm has to be carefully considered.

[Michael]

Exactly, it would depend on the site. But even on a less than flat site considering a berm has to be carefully considered.

  havoc with drainage? Or would this lead to a quasi collection area and cause turf concerns? I have seen a feature like this on a course to protect a wetland area from too much cart/foot/club/ball traffic.

[Adam Clayman]

Michael, I've seen it poorly done and for the differing reasons you have touched on.

It was appropriate that Brad mentioned Colorado Golf Club. That's where I first met Mr. Crenshaw and just asked him one question. "Is there any good ground out there for golf?" He acknowledged in the affirmative and then went on a wonderful synopsis of George Thomas' principles when he designed Riviera. That's where my comment about feature shaping against the natural flow of the property comes from. One of the interesting aspects of CGC is that it is C&C doing Championship golf (for the first time I believe). If you ever get to play CGC some of the best holes are on the least dramatic terrain. One of the reason for that is that they adhered to Thomas' principle. So many modern gca's would sign their name on each hole (usually greensite) with inappropriate eye jarring mounding.
This is the crux of my point in pointing out your suggestion imply that one need only construct a berm to create the desired affect. 

[Michael]

Michael, I've seen it poorly done and for the differing reasons you have touched on.

It was appropriate that Brad mentioned Colorado Golf Club. That's where I first met Mr. Crenshaw and just asked him one question. "Is there any good ground out there for golf?" He acknowledged in the affirmative and then went on a wonderful synopsis of George Thomas' principles when he designed Riviera. That's where my comment about feature shaping against the natural flow of the property comes from. One of the interesting aspects of CGC is that it is C&C doing Championship golf (for the first time I believe). If you ever get to play CGC some of the best holes are on the least dramatic terrain. One of the reason for that is that they adhered to Thomas' principle. So many modern gca's would sign their name on each hole (usually greensite) with inappropriate eye jarring mounding.
This is the crux of my point in pointing out your suggestion imply that one need only construct a berm to create the desired affect. 

 I just wondered how a designer would work with a problem of a tilted fairway landing area..I'm sure they have many options and I agree that mounding would seem to be a "band-aid" solution. Some of the local courses I've played (designed by who knows who) have areas when you just have to scratch you head and wonder if they just ran out of ideas or money or both.

I'm sure a designer would not find themselves in this situation, having done the routing and preliminary lay out to avoid this type of problem in the first place.