[Tommy Williamsen]

I just got back from a two day trip to PA.  I played Bedford Springs, Rolling Rock, and Laurel Valley.  Bedford Springs has had plenty written about it here.  They spent almost seven million on the course.  It was very good.  The greens were phenomenal.  My only gripe was that the greens were all ringed with three inch rough.  I would liked to have seen some of the fringes mowed to fairway length.

Rolling Rock is truly a hidden gem.  It is not long but the terrain makes the course.  What gives with the tower at the clubhouse.  I forgot to ask.

Now about Laurel Valley.  I have read some previous posts about the course and they were not all that complimentary.  I fell in love with the course.  I had only two problems with the course.  Three par threes were about the same length and the course was very soft. I thought the par fives were excellent.  You had to think about every shot, especially the second shot.  The second shot set up the hole.  The par fours just great.  They were all different from each other.  Some went left to right, others right to left and others dead straight.  The use of water was restrained but got your attention.  The bunkering was interesting and if you stray a little you will find the beach.  You really can't bump and run too many shots because of the soft conditions which is a shame because the design allowed it.
The fifteenth is a short par four that I absolutely loved.  It is dogleg left around a pond witha fery undulating green with bunkers all over the place.  I played it four times.

Sorry, but I did not take pictures.  It didn't seem appropriate.

[Greg Tallman]

Long standing favorite of mine. Love the 10th hole

[Tommy Williamsen]

Ten is just a wonderful hole.  The caddy told me how they moved the green and put in the pond.  It is a great driving hole.  The ball just stays in the air.

[Deucie Bies]

Number 10 is one of my alltime favorite holes.  12 and 13 aren't bad either!  In my opinion (and the opinion of my friend who is a member), number 11 is a terrible par five.  From what I understand, Palmer understands this and is trying to find a way to fix it, including building a fairway to the left (which was the original design), and having two fairways to choose from.

[Tommy Williamsen]

From what my caddie told me, eleven has been changed a few times.  I guess the tee has been moved at least three times.  The bunker that is about ten yards in front of the green is pretty cool though.  Eleven is the only par five that does not require a well thought out second shot.

[Rob_Waldron]

TW

I made the LVGC / BSR swing Labor Day weekend. I agree with you about the Bedford greens...they were by far the best part of the course. The middle grouping of holes up and down the valley were a bit boring but I loved the last four holes.

Laurel Valley has a reputation for being soft and it was the day we played. The green complexes make the course. I just love the bunkering! I also like the target fairway bunkers. The key to the adjusting the length of the par threes is to pick the length you want to play. I found the tee markers set at the same length (Approx. 200 yards) for three of the par three holes. There is great variety in the par 4 and par 5 holes. Some good risk/reward options.....especially #18!

[Tommy Williamsen]

Rob,  I agree.  There is great variety on the fours and fives. I also like it as a driving course.  It waas pretty clear where the best tee shots should land.  It was a challenge to get to some of the spots.  Some fairway bunkers dared you to skirt them or fly them.

[Dan Herrmann]

Tommy - Congratulations on your day at Laurel Valley - I've only seen it on TV, and it blew my socks off.  I wonder if this is Dick Wilson at his best?

PS - You lucky dog!  LV is one of the toughest "gets" in Pennsylvania

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy:

Hate to bust everyone's bubble -- for me Laurel Valley is almost always ...

1). Extremely overwatered and way too s-l-o-w for my tastes. That doesn't mean to say it's not impeccably groomed.

2). Possesses a Dick Wilson design that has little real overall strategic value -- he has done better with the likes of Pine Tree and Meadowbrook (NY) to name just two others I have played.

Tommy, I can understand your affinity for the place but I just don't see Laurel Valley being recognized as one of America's 100 best courses.

Agree with those who mention the 10th hole as a fine hole.

Just my opinion -- no doubt you and others see it otherwise.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Matt, I read some of your rremarks about LV on a previous thread.  It is interesting that my caddie (named Chi Chi of all things) told that the week before the course was hard and fast.  It rained hard the day before I played.  I wonder if the course does not drain well, because I literally got no roll of the tee.

Nonetheless, I found the strategic value off the tee and into the greens to be exceptional.  With all the changes made over the years I wonder how much Dick Wilson is left.  I would love to play it with you.  I would be fun.  Most of the time we concur on our course evaluations.

[Deucie Bies]

Matt, I read some of your rremarks about LV on a previous thread.  It is interesting that my caddie (named Chi Chi of all things) told that the week before the course was hard and fast.  It rained hard the day before I played.  I wonder if the course does not drain well, because I literally got no roll of the tee.

Nonetheless, I found the strategic value off the tee and into the greens to be exceptional.  With all the changes made over the years I wonder how much Dick Wilson is left.  I would love to play it with you.  I would be fun.  Most of the time we concur on our course evaluations.

Laurel Valley hard and fast?  I don't believe it.  I have played there a number of times and the course is always wet and slow.  There are some very good holes out there, but I agree that there is not much variation on the par 3s except for maybe 14.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I would love to see pictures of this grand course. I have wanted to see it for years. Oh Greg interesting start to the year for your HoKies

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy:

I'd have to play the course when it's EVER firm and fast to see how it plays and what the architectural elements are when such situations arise.

Tommy, don't know if you have played Pine Tree, Meadowbrook or even NCR in Dayton but they are all better than Laurel Valley. LV benefits from some heavy duty connections and no doubt the link w Arnie does help.

Have to say I am thoroughly confused how the layout maintains a top 100 position from the ones I have played.

[Jim Franklin]

I find it ironic that every person I know that is a Golfweek panelist hates LV, but all my Golf Digest friends like it. To me, that means it is in great shape and it is hard. I will find out next week.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy:

I'd have to play the course when it's EVER firm and fast to see how it plays and what the architectural elements are when such situations arise.

Tommy, don't know if you have played Pine Tree, Meadowbrook or even NCR in Dayton but they are all better than Laurel Valley. LV benefits from some heavy duty connections and no doubt the link w Arnie does help.

Have to say I am thoroughly confused how the layout maintains a top 100 position from the ones I have played.

I played Pine Tree about fifteen years ago and NCR about the same time (It was just after the new clubhouse was built).  I thoroughly enjoyed NCR.  I thought the terrain was terrific and the par fours especially strong.  To be honest I don't remember too much about Pine Tree except that it was demanding off the tee and that the bunkering was excellent.  I probably would put NCR  ahead of LV.  Don't know about Pine Tree.

[Greg Tallman]

I would love to see pictures of this grand course. I have wanted to see it for years. Oh Greg interesting start to the year for your HoKies

Easy Tiger,

Hokies are among my least favorite teams. That said the start to the year for my MOUNTAINEERS... ehhhh the same!

[Matt_Ward]

Jim F:

Be curious to your comments.

For me Laurel Valley is one of the poster children for the empty and generally meaningless time frame of courses that came of age through the late 50's and 60's.

Dick Wilson has done far better work and I can't see how LV remains among the premier courses in the USA.

Candidly, I'd rather play Totteridge in Greensburg, PA than LV.

No doubt the AP connection helps -- ditto hosting a US Open & Senior Open.

But the course is not much more than a wet and slow slog.

A few holes of note but more an emphasis on the word "few" than many.

[Jim Franklin]

Matt -

I will let you know. I played Totteridge and was not overly impressed. It was not bad, but coming from 2 rounds at Oakmont I guess was not that fair.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

After Oakmont -- anything would pale in comparison.

Candidly, the need to leave the immediate Pittsburgh area for LV is really not needed with the likes of Fox Chapel and the Field Club so much nearer.

[Jim Franklin]

I just got back from playing LV and have some thoughts. Like Rob Waldron mentioned, LV had some excellent green sites. #10 was terrific as everyone else mentioned, but I may fall in line with Matt. My shoes were DRENCHED by the time we finished our round. I thought I played in a hurricane, but they had not had rain for several days. It must be the elevation that causes them to get a ton of morning dew.

I was not inspired by any tee shots with the exception of 10 and 12. The rest were fairly bland. I will say again that the green sites were very good though. It was a shame that you could not run a ball onto any of the greens. I tried on number 15 as the pin was tucked near the front and my ball hit and stuck. I also like the number 18. I hit a lousy drive and laid up. The pin was tucked in the far right front corner. I hit three wedges right at the hole and spun two of the three off the green and into the water. I loved tha pin placement though.

All in all, I believe LV falls just outside the top 100.

[Deucie Bies]

I was not inspired by any tee shots with the exception of 10 and 12.

What about the tee shot on 13?

[Jim Franklin]

Not as good as 10 or 12. Better than others there for sure. Maybe I was a little harsh saying no other tee shots were inspiring, but not far from it.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Jim and Matt,  take away the fact that the course does not seem to dry out for whatever reason.  Olympic Club has similar problems  to some extent.  I found the course to be demanding off the tee.  Jim, I wonder if you didn't because because of your length and my lack of it.  I found great variety in the par fours and interesting par threes. The greens complexes were exciting.  I don't know if it belongs in the top 100.  It is such a select company that "membership" is super exclusive.  I would be able to play the course and enjoy it over and over again. 

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy:

Olympic does have wet issues but much of that comes from its location and what Mother Nature provides. LV stems from a desire to douse the place with H20 to the point of total saturation.

Let me repeat what I said previously, I don't know if you have played Pine Tree, Meadowbrook on LI or NCR / South in Dayton but they are all better layouts than LV. LV received mega publicity for hosting a Ryder Cup, PGA and Sr. Open over the years. It is hard course in spots but so what? There's plenty of hard courses but where is the compelling architecture?

Tommy, the experience you had at LV was good for you. That's great. Glad you enjoyed it but from my experience and the different Dick Wilson designs I have played I don't see much there that would raise it to the exclusive level of a top 100 in the USA. There's been a ton of good stuff designed since the course came on board and it reflects a dated style that really has fallen out of flavor.

LV benefits from its relationship as well w AP and all the corporate types who have played there over the years. Exclusivity, rather than compelling architecture, is really what pushed the envelope for LV in my opinion.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Matt, here is an earlier post.

Personal Message (Online)       
   
Re: Laurel Valley
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2008, 12:18:48 pm »    Reply with quote Modify message
Quote from: Matt_Ward on September 11, 2008, 11:00:18 pm
 

Tommy, don't know if you have played Pine Tree, Meadowbrook or even NCR in Dayton but they are all better than Laurel Valley. LV benefits from some heavy duty connections and no doubt the link w Arnie does help.
 
 

I played Pine Tree about fifteen years ago and NCR about the same time (It was just after the new clubhouse was built).  I thoroughly enjoyed NCR.  I thought the terrain was terrific and the par fours especially strong.  To be honest I don't remember too much about Pine Tree except that it was demanding off the tee and that the bunkering was excellent.  I probably would put NCR  ahead of LV.  Don't know about Pine Tree.


I too, am not sure LV belongd in the top 100. It is a pretty exclusive club.

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