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Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #175 on: September 17, 2008, 07:40:38 PM »
Guys--

I seem to remember reading the 1932 history of the Los Angeles Country Club that makes no mention of Herbert Fowler appearing on the property, let alone designing any golf courses and only one brief mention of Thomas.  Club history books tend to talk about things that we are little or not interested in, it's membership. 

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #176 on: September 17, 2008, 07:52:50 PM »
Wayne:

I wouldn't think of asking Tony Piopi to do something like that. I wouldn't think of asking anyone to do it except Tom MacWood who floated this idea himself completely contrary to what Myopia's own records of the time say. If there even is some old Boston Globe article that mentions Campbell and Myopia it probably doesn't amount to a damn thing except something Tom MacWood is using as a total exaggeration. If he doesn't produce it himself I'll take the whole thing as a compelete non-issue as I'm sure Myopia will at this point. This is any different from this whole Merion charade of the M&Ms. This isn't about the accurate histories of these clubs, its only about them. This crap from them that all these legends are overblown and everyone from or around these clubs are out to get them for saying so is a complete charade. It's pathetic and I believe every reasonable mind who's aware of what they've said feels the same way.

Don't worry, if some article really said anything significant he would be the first to produce it on here and if for no other reason to try to prove me wrong or embarrass me. This is apparently just another smokescreen like Merion and others. This is why the guy is one of the worst architectural analysts there is. Well, maybe the second worst. I forgot about the other one---he's even worse.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 08:02:23 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #177 on: September 17, 2008, 08:07:46 PM »
"I'd figured that Leeds wasn't much into publicity-making for his work at Myopia, but that quote makes it sound like he actively avoided it."

PeterP:

That sounds about right to me. I've never really heard of Leeds going really public on his own. I believe he certainly was interested in Myopia being considered a great golf course but I've seen almost nothing from him

It appears he was about as different from Macdonald that way as night is to day.  ;) It's not surprising for Myopia either. They are extremely publicity shy now for their own reasons and they probably always have been except perhaps around Boston and the social world there.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #178 on: September 17, 2008, 08:13:53 PM »
TE
I don't care who the sucker is you get to do your research, just keep his identity to yourself.

Wayne
I look at it a little differently. I told him exactly what I found and where I found it. If he's too lazy to look it up himself why should hand it over to him? That would be like you do all the research and writing on the Flynn book and then giving TE equal credit. It makes no sense.

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #179 on: September 17, 2008, 08:19:17 PM »
"TE
It is obvious they closely associated Campbell with Myopia, and why wouldn't they. Willie Campbell laid out the first nine holes (at least), and he was the pro at Myopia. Its not like Myopia was the only course Campbell ever competed over. As the author said "Kirkaldy was much interested in the fact that Willie Campbell, his old friend, had tried shots at this or that hole. It was a reunion in the spirit of the old and new gods of the game."

Mr. MacWood:

This is what you base Campbell's close association with Myopia on---that Andrew Kirkaldy said he tried shots at this or that hole?? If so you're an even worse analyst than I thought.

'The old and the new gods of the game'   ??? Are you really serious with that??   ::)



"For the fifteenth time I have to decline, as you know I made a pledge some time ago that I would not help you or anyone associated with you. Since obviously you are incapable of researching this stuff on your own (even when you're told where to look) perhaps you could get one of your lackeys to do it."


Of course you have to decline by using that ridiculous excuse of your "pledge", Mr. MacWood. It's a smokescreen for the fact you ain't got shit and you've always known it. Noone is interested in doing any research for this dumb claim of yours. If you want it to be considered you produce it yourself or else anyone that matters will consider it to be a complete non-issue.  

Willie Campbell did not lay out the original nine at Myopia. Myopia members Appleton, Merrill and Gardner did it.

By the way, when did Campbell first arrive in this country, Mr. MacWood?  ;)
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 08:21:18 PM by TEPaul »

Jay Flemma

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #180 on: September 17, 2008, 08:27:12 PM »
Might we all agree that the time has come to close up shop and lock this thread?

I mean, I like reading all you guys, but this thread has completely devolved from discussing the things that are similar and dissimilar between the two courses named, and has turned into another place for people to attack each other again.

Don't you guys have a Merion thread to fight on?  Can't we get along on threads started by others?  You are importing the Merion argument into too many other threads.

Can we please get this discussion back on point and njust be reasonably civil?  If you can't, to the rest of us, let's go over to mike Mosely's eastward ho! thread and try to start the discussion over again.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #181 on: September 17, 2008, 08:38:41 PM »
"TE
It is obvious they closely associated Campbell with Myopia, and why wouldn't they. Willie Campbell laid out the first nine holes (at least), and he was the pro at Myopia. Its not like Myopia was the only course Campbell ever competed over. As the author said "Kirkaldy was much interested in the fact that Willie Campbell, his old friend, had tried shots at this or that hole. It was a reunion in the spirit of the old and new gods of the game."

Mr. MacWood:

This is what you base Campbell's close association with Myopia on---that Andrew Kirkaldy said he tried shots at this or that hole?? If so you're an even worse analyst than I thought.

'The old and the new gods of the game'   ??? Are you really serious with that??   ::)



"For the fifteenth time I have to decline, as you know I made a pledge some time ago that I would not help you or anyone associated with you. Since obviously you are incapable of researching this stuff on your own (even when you're told where to look) perhaps you could get one of your lackeys to do it."


Of course you have to decline by using that ridiculous excuse of your "pledge", Mr. MacWood. It's a smokescreen for the fact you ain't got shit and you've always known it. Noone is interested in doing any research for this dumb claim of yours. If you want it to be considered you produce it yourself or else anyone that matters will consider it to be a complete non-issue.  

Willie Campbell did not lay out the original nine at Myopia. Myopia members Appleton, Merrill and Gardner did it.

By the way, when did Campbell first arrive in this country, Mr. MacWood?  ;)

TE
If you are having trouble negotiating Ancestry.com perhaps one of your friends can help you. For a guy who claims to be interested in Myopia's history you sure haven't proven to be too industrious. Your idea of getting to the bottom of the things is reading the club history, and then brow beating me in hopes I might give you something you can take back to the club. I don't want to be criticial but I don't think the club is getting their monies worth.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 08:41:15 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #182 on: September 17, 2008, 09:55:12 PM »
MR. MacWood:

Since you are obviously not aware of the records of the club I doubt the club has any interest in you and what you think about it's architectural history. Some of them are aware of your Merion charade and they feel about it about the same way Merion does. My only point with you is if you contend on here that you have an article on something about Willie Campbell and Myopia then show it on here instead of hiding behind some ridiculous "pledge". ;)  No one else is going to do it for you particularly since you have no credibilty on here with some of these clubs you purport to reestablish the architectural history of.

Jay:

I agree that this thread should get back to a comparison and constrast of Myopia and GCGC. Mr. MacWood should bow out of this thread because he's never even seen Myopia and consequently has no knowledge of it, so how in the world can he compare and contrast the two course?.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #183 on: September 17, 2008, 11:19:28 PM »
TE, Tom M

I'd assumed that the 1906 article was referring to Leeds, but what I found strange is the phrasing of it, i.e. the writing seemed to go out of its way NOT to mention Leeds by name, and yet at the same time to suggest that the name had "long been known"by those in the know...

I'd figured that Leeds wasn't much into publicity-making for his work at Myopia, but that quote makes it sound like he actively avoided it.

Peter   

I think you may be on to something. He was a very unusual man on several levels. He was clearly well known and well respected but for whatever reason refused to take his show on the road, unlike Macdonald or Travis or Wilson. The two known exceptions Aiken and Kebo Valley predate his involvement at Myopia. How was he influenced by Willie Campbell and John Jones. What was the inluence of his many trips abroad. He could have hosted the more prestigious US Am but refused. I have a feeling we have only scratched the surface of telling the complete story.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 11:21:45 PM by Tom MacWood »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #184 on: September 17, 2008, 11:29:51 PM »
MR. MacWood:

Since you are obviously not aware of the records of the club I doubt the club has any interest in you and what you think about it's architectural history. Some of them are aware of your Merion charade and they feel about it about the same way Merion does. My only point with you is if you contend on here that you have an article on something about Willie Campbell and Myopia then show it on here instead of hiding behind some ridiculous "pledge". ;)  No one else is going to do it for you particularly since you have no credibilty on here with some of these clubs you purport to reestablish the architectural history of.

Again Tom, I just want to clarify.  You are not really talking about "club records," are you?   As you must know, a club history written much later is not a "club record," written contemporaneously with that which it records.    So which are you relying on?  Club records or a club history written much later?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 11:31:31 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #185 on: September 18, 2008, 07:07:18 AM »
"I'd figured that Leeds wasn't much into publicity-making for his work at Myopia, but that quote makes it sound like he actively avoided it."


PeterP:

I wouldn't disagree with that. It seems that those from the club who knew him so well wouldn't disagree with it either. The club today tends to look at him and his legacy that way too, and in an interesting way it seems to fit into the basic culture or ethos of the club.

With what does that kind of basic culture or ethos of publicity shyness have to do at Myopia or a number of other clubs like it in America and elsewhere? There are a number of them with which I'm familiar and have been for years, Fishers Island, Pine Valley, probably Merion in some ways, my own, GMGC, and numerous others like them such as NGLA, Maidstone, The Creek, Piping, Shinnecock, Yeamans, Seminole and others, particularly up and down the East coast of America.

A man on here, Mr. MacWood, just proclaimed he thinks 'we' are just scratching the surface about Leeds and people of his ilk and kind, and Myopia. Perhaps Mr. MacWood is just scratching the surface, I would not doubt that. Others on here are not just scratching the surface----I believe they are very deep below that surface and have a true understanding of that culture and ethos for a number of reasons.

What is it really, that ethos and culture, that interestingly in the history and evolution of some of the most famous and respected clubs and courses created a remarkably similar and common theme and perception?

In my opinion, it is not much other, generally, than what some appropriately have referred to and still do as the WASP World. What was it, what was it like, what did it represent, and most importantly were there common traits and habits amongst its members or class or whatever one wants to call it that some of us on here should know about and know more about when it comes to this subject of some of the American golf clubs and courses and some of the designers who did them such as those who I refer to as "amateur/sportsmen"? There is no question that there were common traits and themes!

Is it important to know to have a real understanding of a man like Leeds, or Emmet, or Wilson or Crump, what they were like, what they were not like, what they thought in a general sense about the world they lived in, their culture and other cultures, their sports, their golf clubs and courses, and seemingly their golf course architecture?

Were they controversial in some or many ways both then and now? Probably. Did they deserve to be? That is the best question of all but to ever be able to answer that, at this point, one certainly does need to get below the surface of that so-called WASP World, that was so tight, so interrelated in America, in many ways so closed (for a few interesting reasons), and almost all of whom were educated back then at basically 3-5 American universities.

To understand Leeds, who and what he was, what he was like, one must understand that world and do more than just scratch its surface.

Mr. MacWood is pretty good at telling others if they want to do some expert and independent research on various subjects they need to read--particularly to read some of the seminal books on a particular subject. I would recommend the same to him on this subject if he wants to do more than just scratch its surface and really understand a man like Herbert Carey Leeds.

For starters, he should get the books of one E. Digby Baltzell. He was a sociology professor at the University of Pennsylvania. He made his entire august career in sociology and academia writing about the WASP World and what-all it was, what it did, what it could've done if not for various cultural traits and eccentricities.

Baltzell coigned the acronym WASP back in the late 40s or early 50s and he tracked and wrote on the subject for the remainder of his long and august career in sociology. He tracked many of the high-points of that world in business, politics, society and even in sports. He even wrote about what they thought they should and shouldn't wear, what they thought they should and shouldn't say, and generally they way they thought they should be or were expected to be and not be. He eventually came to the conclusion that the seeds of their long-running devolution from the power they once held in the burgeoning American society actually in many ways revolved around their CLUBS! THAT is a whole story in and of itself (he did not mean just golf clubs) but one that is no less fascinating. But one major component of it was what most anyone might consider to be a penchant for publicity-shyness, for a form of ultimate privacy, at least in one interesting phase and time of their collective lives.

If you want to scratch below the surface of a man like Leeds and Myopia and men and clubs like them, Mr. MacWood, that is the place to start to read but obviously as in all these things there is more, lots more---lots more to read and understand. If you don't believe me, which I'm quite sure you probably don't, then call some good sociology professor at your local university and ask him or her----you will hear the very same thing.  ;)

If you would like to know more about all this PeterP or Jay Flemma, I'd be glad to tell you what I know. If you wouldn't then no problem at all, I won't bother. But if you want to really understand the likes of Emmet, Crump, Wilson and certainly Leeds, this is a must know.


PS:

Someone asked me if I understand the difference between a club history book written years later and contemporaneous club "records" and if I'm talking about one or both. Of course I understand the difference and I'm talking about both and I am referring to both! As I've said on here many times I believe this is one of the most important reasons to become involved with a subject or club if one ever wants to truly understand its history including the evolution of its architecture and its architect. I also believe if one does not to do that or refuses to do that it will be fairly limiting as far as a full understanding goes, and it does not matter who you are or who you think you are as a researcher/analyst. If you don't do that your understanding will always be necessarily limited, as Mr. MacWood's clearly is on Leeds and Myopia and a number of other clubs and their architects like it.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 07:21:16 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #186 on: September 18, 2008, 07:38:08 AM »
I did not write that big long post above about the WASP World and what it meant and means to some of the subjects we deal with on here---golf clubs, courses, architecture and architects from the old days in some attempt to see that it might avoid criticism, historically or otherwise.

It should be criticized, as like with many things there were a number of things that were somewhat strange and elitist and very different about it. But there were definitely other things about it and its people that were admirable and which made its products and practitioners in golf and golf architecture famous and deserving of the fame and glory they've gotten.

The important thing it to really understand it accurately and to not lay some inaccurate revisionistic veneer on what it was and what the people from it were and weren't because some today have not done more than just scratch its surface and who have not done more than simply "tilt" at its "legends" without a very good understanding of them, "their" world and how they looked at the over-all world they lived in back then!  ;)
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 07:43:46 AM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #187 on: September 18, 2008, 07:44:38 AM »
TE
Thanks for the lecture on the blueblood ethos. One thing I'm not crazy about is portraiting all the amateur/sportsmen as being cut from the same clothe. Over generalizing does not tell me much about the individual man - all these men were unique, with unique stories and backgrounds. This is especially true when analyzing their architectural career, philosphies and influences.

For example how much do you know about Leeds travels abroad? When he was a young man he traveled the world, but when he was older his focus was the UK. What years did he travel to the UK? Where exactly did he go and who did he meet? Is there a correlation between these UK visits and major alterations to Myopia?

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #188 on: September 18, 2008, 08:59:33 AM »
"TE
Thanks for the lecture on the blueblood ethos. One thing I'm not crazy about is portraiting all the amateur/sportsmen as being cut from the same clothe. Over generalizing does not tell me much about the individual man - all these men were unique, with unique stories and backgrounds. This is especially true when analyzing their architectural career, philosphies and influences."


Mr. MacWood:

It's too bad you call that a lecture. I think it's some very good background and basis to be able to understand men like Leeds. Perhaps you don't get that at all, and believe me, I can definitely understand why. It's sort of like not being able to understand a seminal ancient Roman without having a fairly good understanding of the culture, habits, traits, and of course, the ethos of ancient Rome.

That you have some chip on your shoulder about this kind of thing is really obvious but that isn't my concern and either is individually educating you on this stuff. My only concern is simply pointing out when and where you are really inaccurate and revisionist about it and its people.

It is also not lost on me that when you posted that thread of yours on here over five years ago entitled "Re: Macdonald and Merion" you explained that you'd run across two articles that mentioned Macdonald/Whigam advised and made suggestions to MCC in 1910 and 1911. You went on to ask if this meant that perhaps Macdonald/Whigam had been slighted and minimized by Merion with what they did for the club. Apparently, you felt you had discovered something important in those two articles you’d just found that either Merion or we here were not aware of. Obviously, you did not know at that time that Macdonald/Whigam's participation had ALWAYS been known to and reflected in Merion's history and we here were well aware of it for years.

In that thread I explained to you that the details of who did what and where on Merion East were generally never recorded and that we were not aware of them and for those reasons, and that they would probably never be known in detail (other than a few seminal ones such as Francis' story).

Then Wayne Morrison eventually came on and explained to you our research process and the details of what is known about Merion's architectural history including Macdonald/Whigam's participation both at NGLA and for a few days at Ardmore.

AGAIN, it is not lost on me that your immediate response to Wayne Morrison was remarkably similar to what you just said to me in your post above----eg "Thanks for the lecture."  (I believe I will find that thread and pull it back up to the first page or just quote what you said to him in that vein which is completely similar to what you just said to me in your last post above! ;) ).

Things began to devolve down from there basically beginning these contentious "Merion threads" in which you constantly claimed that we here are being defensive and protecting of our local architect and architecture "Legends". In that particular thread that began over five years ago you coigned this thing you call the "Philadelphia Syndrome" that apparently defines, in your mind, some kind of defensiveness on our part. You are still saying that today, Mr. MacWood, and it is still bullshit and clearly nothing more than some excuse on your part to cover up the fact that you really don't understand much about these subjects. Will you ever? That's a very good question. I doubt you ever will the way you've always carried on in your years on this website, and continue to carry on.

I am not exactly trying to generalize about men like Leeds, Emmet, Crump, Wilson et al but there are definitely some very important common threads and themes in who they were and what they were, what they did and the way they went about it. Failing to recognize that or understand it is to never really understand them or what they did, including their courses and its architecture.





"For example how much do you know about Leeds travels abroad? When he was a young man he traveled the world, but when he was older his focus was the UK. What years did he travel to the UK? Where exactly did he go and who did he meet? Is there a correlation between these UK visits and major alterations to Myopia?"




For a number of years now, Mr. MacWood, I've been trying to figure most all of that out, and I've mentioned on here a number of times WHY! Apparently, you’ve missed all that on here too. I guess this is what happens when you refuse to read posts of more than two paragraphs, as you’ve admitted on here. 

I believe that Myopia may've been the FIRST example of really good golf course architecture in this country and obviously I want to know why that was and how Leeds could have done it, and where he found his ideas. So obviously I've wanted to know for some years where he went, who he saw, who he bounced ideas off of and where he found his inspiration to do the big and little things he did at Myopia so long ago. I have some idea but most of the details seem to be elusive. It does not surprise me and Peter Pallotta's sense that he probably was a private and publicity shy man (something I’ve alluded to on here before) makes a lot of sense given the rest of what I know about him and the club knows about him. That he was stand-offish, somewhat of an overbearing martinet probably because of that standoffishness, has been known to me for some years and to the club for well over a century.

Leeds was a remarkably well-rounded athlete in some diverse sports---football, baseball, golf, shooting, and particularly yachting---particularly the America Cup. Perhaps you didn't realize it but I believe the America Cup took place every two years and it alternated between our shores and England's. If he was in that sport the way it's reported he was then he at least got there fairly regularly for that and in that way.

The other thing you apparently fail to understand and appreciate is some people like a Leeds from that world tended to go abroad all the time and sometimes for long periods of time. You don't really need to ask me how and why I know that but I will tell you I most certainly do despite your odd defensiveness about being lectured to about some things you clearly do not know.

I think Leeds may've even sailed around the world and also may've written a book about yachts or yachting.

But there are still many things I don't know about him and would like to know. One of these days I'll make it to Boston and the university that apparently has a good deal about Leeds and his overall family archived.

At this point, I do not even know if Leeds worked and if he did what it was in. I do know there were more than a few of those people in and from his world that never did work in a traditional sense. The reason for that is completely obvious too---eg they didn't have to. And that is why they dedicated themselves to some of the things they did for which they have become famous to us today.

The last point is one really not much worth mentioning to you, I think, because of your limited understanding of those people and that world of theirs. You tend to automatically try to find someone who must have taught men like Leeds how to do what they did or even basically did it for them. I tend to think not----I believe it was very likely that they came up with it themselves with perhaps a modicum of prompting and observational help from others. One could fairly ask both why and how they could do that and I think the answer lies in the fact that they really did think of themselves as the “Best and the Brightest”, they felt they were those fortunate few who were completely classically educated (and they were), they understood what world travel and observation and culture and taste meant and they applied it as they did even with the golf courses and the architecture which made them famous, made them legends, and in my opinion, both rightly and historically and factually so.

I don’t believe this is something you comprehend, Mr. MacWood and perhaps you never will. But if not you never will be a good analyst of this time, those people and the things they produced how and why.



Thomas MacWood

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #189 on: September 18, 2008, 09:38:33 AM »
TE
If you are still trying to figure it out -- his travels to the UK and the subsequent correlation to Myopia that is -- I take it the club records are not very helpful in this regard?

It seems to me being exposed to a similar way of life, as you have, can only go so far in documenting a history. Who was he, who was his mother, who was his father, his gruesome appearance affect, where he went to school, who he married, where he worked, who he lived with, where he lived, who were his friends, who were his rivals, where he travelled, when he travelled, who he travelled with, who he met, who he was influenced by, who he collaborated with, when he became involved at Myopia, precisely when he altered the course, precisely how he altered the course - are not questions that will be answered because you spent your summers at Bar Harbor or wintered at Palm Beach. It will give you insight in a general sense, no doubt, but its not going give you the facts you desire.

By the way, he did not work.

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #190 on: September 18, 2008, 10:47:29 AM »
"TE
If you are still trying to figure it out -- his travels to the UK and the subsequent correlation to Myopia that is -- I take it the club records are not very helpful in this regard?"

Mr. MacWood:

It's hard to say, as one doesn't ever really know what one doesn't know, that's for damn sure, and even though I may be an example of it you certainly seem to be the best example of it extant on a subject like this one. So rather than find out the truth that emanates from something like contemporaneous club administrative meetings, apparently you think it's a better policy to massively exaggerate trivialities or just make stuff up over some inconsequential news article that was probably wrong back when it was written. ;)

The book does mention Leeds's 1902 (I think it was) trip abroad and how he declared he was satisfied with what he had done to date at Myopia compared to the architecture he saw abroad then. Unfortunately, as I've mentioned on here a number of times before, Edward Weeks did have Leeds's diary (or so-called "scrapbook") but it is gone now as far as the club or anyone else can tell. That is too bad as there might have been some very valuable information in it as to where he'd been, what he was thinking about architecture, who he'd talked to about it, etc, etc.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 10:52:51 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #191 on: September 18, 2008, 11:01:49 AM »
"It seems to me being exposed to a similar way of life, as you have, can only go so far in documenting a history. Who was he, who was his mother, who was his father, his gruesome appearance affect, where he went to school, who he married, where he worked, who he lived with, where he lived, who were his friends, who were his rivals, where he travelled, when he travelled, who he travelled with, who he met, who he was influenced by, who he collaborated with, when he became involved at Myopia, precisely when he altered the course, precisely how he altered the course - are not questions that will be answered because you spent your summers at Bar Harbor or wintered at Palm Beach. It will give you insight in a general sense, no doubt, but its not going give you the facts you desire."


Mr. MacWood:

I believe it certainly will give me some of that information or as much as it is possible to get at this time. I've been in contact with a number of people who have much of that information or who can help me find where it is if it still exists, mostly from in and around the club and other families who had to do with it over the years and generations. This is not something that you can not do on the INTERNET looking through old newspaper and magazine articles, ship passenger manifests and website like Ancestory.com. ;) Your vantage point is inherently very limited but it seems you will never understand that----no matter, really, as you don't seem to even attempt to support your speculations anyway, so I can't see that anyone cares much about what they are. Clubs who are truly responsible with the accuracy of their histories generally don't get into your type of "shtick" or those who promote it.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 11:05:41 AM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #192 on: September 18, 2008, 12:51:30 PM »
TE
This is what I refer to as the Holiday Inn Express method of research, first coined a few years ago during a discusion about the influence of the Arts and Crafts Movement. At the time you told us you were an expert on the movement because you had summered in an Olde English style cottage in Maine as a boy and your mother had a subscription to Country Life magazine in the 50s and 60s.

Regarding what you don't know, you cleary said in your previous post this mourning what you don't know...and I'm pretty sure unless you get beyond your favored HIExpress method and try a more tradition research approach you're not going find your answers. Maybe Wayne can give you some suggestions.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 01:27:44 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #193 on: September 18, 2008, 01:16:57 PM »
Mr. MacWood:

I realize what you call my method and have for some years. I also believe I know exactly why you say things like that on here, even if I understand it would be impossible for you to admit the reason. The fact is I know more about the histories and architectural histories of clubs such as Merion, PV, Myopia and a good number of others like them than you ever will or could. I probably know more directly about Arts and Crafts architecture than you ever will too.

There is no question at all that you and I very much disagree on research, research methods and particularly architectural analysis including the architectural histories of some famous courses.

That's fine by me. I think your analyses on many of these courses and their architects is really unintelligent, extremely trivial or exaggerated and revisionist, and of no real value to these clubs and their accurate architectural histories. The fact that you speculate as you do, never bother to even see or get to know some of these clubs and courses you speculate on and even dismiss their own contemporaneous club administrative records that you've never seen or are even aware of, and that you dismiss the accounts of those who were actually part of it if they don't square with your preposterous speculations, and that you only depend on indirect articles pretty much says it all to me as to why you truly lack as an architectural analyst.

Don't worry I know exactly why you do it the way you do, and why you say the things you do to me as you did again above. ;) It's basically the only way you can do it, unfortunately.

Obviously, you feel differently. So be it. In the end it's probably a good thing for architecture and this website that we constantly counterpoint one another. It at least gives people the opportunity to see at least two sides and to decide for themselves which is better and more valuable.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 01:29:25 PM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #194 on: September 18, 2008, 05:15:56 PM »
TE - thanks for your post #185; I think it outlines/captures something quite important historically, in general but also in terms of what we discuss here, i.e. golf architecture as it is actually manifested on the ground...

TE, Tom M -   Your exchange of posts reflects two different (if potentially complementary) approaches to understanding what got built in the old days, and how and why and by whom.   But I think that maybe Mr. Leeds himself makes going beyond what's already known/understood a bit harder, at least when it comes to Myopia.   

From what I've read, I'm guessing that Leeds' reticence about any kind of self-promotion was about more than just seeing it as being "in bad taste".  He strikes me someone who was driven by his own internal vision of what he wanted to achieve and who judged himself by his own internal code of conduct more than by what the outside world considered a worthy achievement or by how the outside world judged his actions.   

I think this may be why it's hard to get details about who Leeds met in his travels and what he saw there and how those people and places influenced him, i.e. guys like him tend  to hold on to and process that kind of information much differently than most people, and don't usually share it very publicly. 

I think it's interesting to consider how Leeds' personality might've actually shaped what he put in the ground at Myopia, and whether the differences between the actual architecture of a course like Myopia and a course like NGLA might have something to do with the different tempraments/natures of Leeds and Macdonald.  Leeds seemed to be trying mostly to please and impress himself, while Macdonald seem to be trying to please and impress the world. I'm not saying one goal is better or worse than the other, just different -- and wondering if this difference might've made all the difference.

Anyway, now that I've come to the end of this post I'm not sure it's going anywhere....

Peter
         
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 05:18:12 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #195 on: September 18, 2008, 10:30:14 PM »
"I believe that Myopia may've been the FIRST example of really good golf course architecture in this country and obviously I want to know why that was and how Leeds could have done it, and where he found his ideas. So obviously I've wanted to know for some years where he went, who he saw, who he bounced ideas off of and where he found his inspiration to do the big and little things he did at Myopia so long ago. I have some idea but most of the details seem to be elusive."

Judging from the uniqueness of his work, I get the impression that Leeds was very independent and very individualistic. I get the sense that he simply built and did whatever he knew in his mind was right for that land, and he didn't need to be influenced or inspired by anyone else. And he must have also been one highly admired man at his club.

My oldest son believes that there is no such thing as an original thought or idea, and he can give you one heck of a case for his position. But Leeds was a true original. I wouldn't be surprised if some of his ideas about golf were truly original ideas. The odd thing is no one else copied him! That's the part about golf course architecture that I don't get.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #196 on: September 19, 2008, 03:30:20 AM »
Might we all agree that the time has come to close up shop and lock this thread?

I mean, I like reading all you guys, but this thread has completely devolved from discussing the things that are similar and dissimilar between the two courses named, and has turned into another place for people to attack each other again.

Don't you guys have a Merion thread to fight on?  Can't we get along on threads started by others?  You are importing the Merion argument into too many other threads.

Can we please get this discussion back on point and njust be reasonably civil?  If you can't, to the rest of us, let's go over to mike Mosely's eastward ho! thread and try to start the discussion over again.


What J said you bunch of knuckleheads - another potentially very cool thread ruined.  Honest to god, you lot are well out of line and you keep doing it over and over without thought or care to others.  Is this the sort of stuff you would do in a face to face conversation?  If not, don't do it here.  If so, stay home. 

Ciao

« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 03:36:16 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #197 on: September 19, 2008, 05:59:31 AM »
"Judging from the uniqueness of his work, I get the impression that Leeds was very independent and very individualistic. I get the sense that he simply built and did whatever he knew in his mind was right for that land, and he didn't need to be influenced or inspired by anyone else. And he must have also been one highly admired man at his club."


Bradley:

I agree with you given a number of some of the old famous stories about Leeds around the club. He seemed to be pretty much the loner. But he was a real martinet too. The club and particularly the younger players there came to call him "Papa".

One interesting story is how he would sit alone in the "Red Room" (bar, I think) in a little corner where he couldn't be seen very well and listen to what players were saying about their rounds and then he might go out and do something with the course accordingly. One story has Quincy Shaw and his group talking about how he hit the 15th in two. Leeds, sitting in his corner, heard this and almost the next day the 15th had some narrow bunkers right in front of the green.

Some on this site seem to believe that men like Leeds had to have somebody (like a Campbell) show him what to do with architecture. I think your right, though, he was the type who figured things out for himself and that's probably why Myopia was so unique so early.

He very much did have a habit of picking the minds and opinions of good players who passed through, or so the stories go.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #198 on: September 19, 2008, 06:24:04 AM »
TE
I don't believe anyone on this site said that Campbell had to show Leeds how to do it, what I said is Campbell laid out the first nine at Myopia (as well as Brookline and Essex County) in 1894. Leeds wasn't even a member of Myopia in 1894; he was playing out of Brookline in 1894. Bob Labbance's article on Leeds claimed Campbell was Leeds golf mentor at Brookline. I think you may have confused who said what about who and when.

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #199 on: September 19, 2008, 10:52:44 PM »
Mr. MacWood:

Will you continue to say Campbell laid out the orginial nine at Myopia if the original nine was already laid out, in play, and had held two tournaments before Campbell first arrived in this country?