Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt

[Jay Flemma]

Why would men who were either FROM Scotland, or had frequently visited Scotland like Emmett (and according to Tom Mac, Alex Findlay), and Willie Dunn, and Tom Bendelow, and Willie Campbell (again, according to Tom), and even CB Macdonald desiging what Tom Mac calls "Victorian architecture" at this time (1890-1900)?

Why would learned men deviate so much from what they knew to be superb overseas??

could one possible answer be either:  lack of money (several courses at the time could only afford nine holes at a a time, say Leatherstocking), or space constraints on the property?  I'm NOT talking about GCGC or MHC here...

Those are just guesses...to genrally answer the broader Q...

Hiya, Cirba!  How's Boy Meets grill?

[TEPaul]

On second thought, maybe I shouldn't have said that as someone might think I wasn't trying to be humorous.

[Thomas MacWood]

Oh for God Sake, man, Crump didn't start Pine Valley when he was one year old obviously but he did it from the day he started it until the day he died and if he hadn't died when he did he probably wouldn't done it for the rest of his life, hence when he was asked when he would finish the course he famously bellowed; "NEVER." The others were basically involved in their projects for years, even decades.

He bellowed? It sounds like you may have been in the room. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you tell us this story was passed down to you but there really is no documentation of it? Lets assume it is true, the fact remains Crump spent 6 years trying to finish his golf course, to compare trying to complete PV to experimenting and tinkering for decades like Ross at #2 is very misleading.

Leeds added the second nine at Myopia in 1898. The major changes he made to the course are well documented and occured in a realtively small window of time. What evidence do you have that he tinkered with the course his entire life?

Emmet laid out GCGC in 1899-1900. Was he ever given controll of the course after that?

How many years was Travis in charge of the architecture at GCGC?

[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

I guess you're right---Myopia, GCGC, Oakmont, NGLA, Merion and Pine Valley probably all got together at some point and agreed to tell the world their "amateur/sportsmen" designers spent years on their special projects to try to make those courses famous or to just try to make "legends" out of their architects.

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
The way I look at it there are facts and there is fiction. While lumping all those gentlemen and courses into one imaginary group makes for an interesting story I think it may ultimately get in the way of the accurate documentation of history. When you are forced to ignore the facts (or questions dealing with facts, which seems to be the case with my questions regarding Leeds, Emmet & Travis) it is clear historical accuracy has taken a back seat to story telling.

[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

Perhaps you think it's fiction that Leeds, the Fowneses, Macdonald, Wilson, Crump took years with their special projects. If so that's probably why so few people take seriously what you think anymore.

I really don't know how much time Emmet and Travis took with GCGC over the years but they were both members of GCGC for many years and it seems pretty logical to presume they took a whole lot longer with that golf course than some peripatetic club professional such as Willie Campbell or H.H. Barker took with some golf course they were not employeed at as a golf professional.

In my opinion, this is a really important observation and theme historically in the evolution of American architecture, and I'm sorry you've missed it.

[Thomas MacWood]

I really don't know how much time Emmet and Travis took with GCGC over the years but they were both members of GCGC for many years and it seems pretty logical to presume they took a whole lot longer with that golf course than some peripatetic club professional such as Willie Campbell or H.H. Barker took with some golf course they were not employeed at as a golf professional.

In my opinion, this is a really important observation and theme historically in the evolution of American architecture, and I'm sorry you've missed it.

TE
Don't you think it would be important to find out how and how long Emmet and Travis were involved at GCGC before making these sweeping declarations? The same is true with Leeds. I have to give you credit you never allow the facts to get in the way of a good story.

[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

How much time Emmet and Travis spent improving the architecture of GCGC is a good question. How much time Leeds, or The Fowneses, Macdonald, Wilson, Crump spent improving the architecture of their special projects really isn't a question unless or until some over-zealous researcher who's never even been to those courses and who's never seen the records of those clubs and who doesnt really get it decided to recommend that most all these clubs just throw away their architectural histories and start from scratch as you have with Myopia!   

Speaking of good stories that are undocumented and very likely fictitious, your story about Campbell and Myopia or even Macdonald about Merion should be considered double-whoppers!   

As many times as you've been asked, I think it is most interesting the numerous ways you've come up with on here not to produce something on Campbell and Myopia and/or to just avoid the subject altogether.

One way to deal with the subject of Campbell and Myopia would be to have you produce one of these ultra reliable ship passenger manifests that prove when Campbell first arrived in this country in 1894, unless you happen to believe he just mailed in the design of Myopia before he ever came to this country his first time here! 

But, hey, I guess anything is possible. It certainly seems so in your mind. Maybe R.M Appleton was fox hunting in Scotland in 1893 and he ran across Willie Campbell walking across the moors and he told him to mail in a design for the original nine holes of Myopia.  

You're the one whose promoting this story of Campbell and Myopia so produce something, even a ship passenger manifest that indicates when he first arrived. Aren't you the one who keeps talking about documentation on here?

So, document it!

[TEPaul]

"I have to give you credit you never allow the facts to get in the way of a good story."

And I must give you credit, Mr. MacWood, for your imaginative abilitiy to let fiction support your stories.

[Mike_Cirba]

Isn't it a bit ironic and ludicrous that we're arguing that the work of Emmett, Travis, Fownes, Wilson, Crump, Leeds should be devalued based on semantic differences of a "lifetime", which in at least every single case meant somewhere between 730 and oh...about 4000 days of involvement with the course designs while simulataneously attempting the elevate the influences and accomplishments of Barker, Macdonald, and Campbell, all of whom spent somewhere between 1 or 4 days with dubious involvement and not a single case where any proof of any used routing has been offered.

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

Not just a bit ironic, but some of the best irony imaginable! For some years now, MikeC, I've been asking myself if these couple of guys are just completely incapable of admitting they're wrong about anything or whether they just don't get it. Or perhaps both which really is a pretty lethal combo to the accurate depiction of history.

And I think it has become downright hilarious that Mr. MacWood keeps insisting on "documentation" while continuously refusing to document a thing about Campbell and Myopia!

[Peter Pallotta]

I thought this was interesting. It's from a 1906 article in the New York Sun:

"Since   the   declaration   by   Andrew   Kirkaldy that   Myopia  is  the best test of   good   golf   he has   seen   in   a   long   life   of   links   visiting,    many amateurs   who   live   afar   from   Boston   have   the desire   to   engage   in   a   competition   over   the noted   course.   To   meet   the   many   requests, open   competitions   have  been arranged   by the   Myopia   golf   committee for   May  31   and September   29."

I don't know the name Andrew Kirkaldy.   Should his praise mean something?

Peter

[Thomas MacWood]

Mr. MacWood:

How much time Emmet and Travis spent improving the architecture of GCGC is a good question. How much time Leeds, or The Fowneses, Macdonald, Wilson, Crump spent improving the architecture of their special projects really isn't a question unless or until some over-zealous researcher who's never even been to those courses and who's never seen the records of those clubs and who doesnt really get it decided to recommend that most all these clubs just throw away their architectural histories and start from scratch as you have with Myopia!   

TE
You lumped all these gentlemen together under one umbrella and claimed these were life long projects. That is a clear distortion. It is obvious you have no idea how long Emmet and Travis were involved at GCGC (or what they did). You have no idea when Leeds made his historic changes to Myopia, the years he actively altered the course, the same with Fownes at Oakmont. You equate Crump's six years laboring over the construction of PV with Ross's and Macdonald's decades long tinkering.

You have no facts to back up your overreaching conclusions and generalizations. I love your stories but why not include some facts?

[Thomas MacWood]

I thought this was interesting. It's from a 1906 article in the New York Sun:

"Since   the   declaration   by   Andrew   Kirkaldy that   Myopia  is  the best test of   good   golf   he has   seen   in   a   long   life   of   links   visiting,    many amateurs   who   live   afar   from   Boston   have   the desire   to   engage   in   a   competition   over   the noted   course.   To   meet   the   many   requests, open   competitions   have  been arranged   by the   Myopia   golf   committee for   May  31   and September   29."

I don't know the name Andrew Kirkaldy.   Should his praise mean something?

Peter

Kirkaldy and Sandy Herd visited together and were both very impressed. They were among the best players of that era, both highly respected. Both men delved into golf architecture too, in fact Herd was fairly prolific. He was HH Barker's mentor.

I found this interesting observation from another account of their visit to Myopia:

"Kirkaldy was much interested in the fact that Willie Campbell, his old friend, had tried shots at this or that hole. It was a reunion in the spirit of the old and new gods of the game."

[Thomas MacWood]

Isn't it a bit ironic and ludicrous that we're arguing that the work of Emmett, Travis, Fownes, Wilson, Crump, Leeds should be devalued based on semantic differences of a "lifetime", which in at least every single case meant somewhere between 730 and oh...about 4000 days of involvement with the course designs while simulataneously attempting the elevate the influences and accomplishments of Barker, Macdonald, and Campbell, all of whom spent somewhere between 1 or 4 days with dubious involvement on not a single case where any proof of any used routing has been offered.

Mike
Do you think getting the facts straight is going to devalue their accomplishments? I don't. IMO it is more important to know exactly who did what, when and with whom, than it is create and preserve these myths. Each situation was unique and distorting the facts so we might jam all these guys into one neat overreaching box is a bad idea in my view, and bad history too.

[Mike_Cirba]

I'd love to see a list of competitors at the "Open Competitions" at Myopia in 1906.

That could be very interesting.

[TEPaul]

"You have no idea when Leeds made his historic changes to Myopia, the years he actively altered the course, the same with Fownes at Oakmont."

Mr. MacWood:

Why in the world would you say something like that? You have no idea at all what I know about the architectural history of Myopia or Oakmont. I do admit, however, that I probably don't know as much about Emmet and Travis at GCGC other than reading the club's history of Emmet's and Travis' participation with the course and Bob Labbance's biography of Travis. I've also talked to Pat about it some who arguably knows more about it than you ever will and I've also been in contact quite a bit with Mel Lucas, GCGC former super who arguably knows more about the architectural history of that course than everyone else combined.

Apparently, you think spending a few hours there one day and having someone buy you lunch and talk about it as well as burying your head in old newspaper and magazine articles gives you some better understanding of the course than the rest.

That is a total figment of your imagination, Mr. MacWood that you've been laboring under as long as you've been on this website. Do you really think anyone believes you when you say these things? I doubt that. It's also so obvious how you try to promote yourself in such a transparent way with these preposterous statements and questions of yours.

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall you ever giving any specific details as to who did what and when at Myopia, GCGC or Oakmont. I assumed you had no clue. Please elaborate.

[Thomas MacWood]

I'd love to see a list of competitors at the "Open Competitions" at Myopia in 1906.

That could be very interesting.

I have not found any results from the May 31 competition. The later one was very small, only four competitors: Richard Kimball, AG Sprague, AH Shaw and A Sweeney.

[TEPaul]

"I'd love to see a list of competitors at the "Open Competitions" at Myopia in 1906."

MikeC:

What would you like to know about the US Open competitions held at Myopia four times between 1898 and 1908?

[TEPaul]

"TE
Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall you ever giving any specific details as to who did what and when at Myopia, GCGC or Oakmont. I assumed you had no clue. Please elaborate."

Mr. MacWood:

Apparently you did miss a lot which really isn't surprising for someone who admitted on here he doesn't even bother to read threads that're over two paragraphs.

Why would I bother trying to educate you again on the specifics of the architectural histories of any of these courses? That last time I quoted on here from Myopia's history book which quoted some of the meetings in 1894 and other years, you responded on here that Myopia should scrap their entire archtitectural history and start from scratch.

Why would I try to educate, AGAIN, someone who says something that nonsensical?

But if you missed any specifics on here in the past then try using the search feature. You said you understand how to do that, didn't you? Well, then, do it. I see know reason to spend time trying to individually educate you on these important clubs you know so little about directly.

And AGAIN, don't talk to anyone on here about producing "documentation" unless and until you produce documentation on Campbell designing the original nine of Myopia as well as documentation of when he first arrived in this country. Get to that, Mr. MacWood, and stop avoiding the issue as if it hasn't been asked before.

[Peter Pallotta]

This is another interesting tidbit - again from way back in 1906, in an article about Kirkarldy calling Myopia the best course he's played.

"...On  a   strict poll, however,  the professionals  would  vote for Myopia   as   the   first   course   in   the   East, Wheaton in   the   West,  Aiken in   the   South, and Lambton Country   Club  links in Toronto, the best in the North....That  two of   the   four --   Myopia   and   Alken --  owe   their excellence to   the   efforts   of   the   one   amateur has long been known --a sportsman who played and studied   golf   here   and   abroad   before undertaking to   put   his   ideas   into   a   course with the detail and thoroughness that have made him a leader at   field   sports, yachting, fishing and shooting. He   has   had   a   free hand and   the   hearty   cooperation   of   his   club committess, besides having the support of a brainy professional, John  Jones, at both Myopia  and  Aiken..."

Strangley, this "one amateur" is never mentioned by name...at least that i could see (the print is kind of garbled in places and makes it hard to read)

Peter

[TEPaul]

PeterP:

It was Leeds unless there was some other "amateur/sportsman" at Myopia we don't know about who sailed in America Cup yacht racing, and apparently went around the world and wrote a book about yachting. Many of those guys back then were remarkable all around sportsmen. Leeds had also been a star shortstop in baseball and footballer for Harvard.

Apparently, Mr. MacWood doesn't exactly understand that as he mentioned on here that in his opinion it is preposterous to think a man at Myopia (R.M. Appleton) who was the club's premier huntsman could actually lay out a golf course for Myopia even despite the fact he had a golf course of his own before that on his own estate in Ipswich, Appleton Farm. 

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

TEPaul,

Thanks.

Actually, I was 5 when my desire to be Chief Justice was squelched.

Mike Cirba,

You've asked a question that I've been asking myself for years.

Over the years, why weren't there more attempts to duplicate the general concepts at GCGC ?

Were there any courses in the Philadelphia area that were built like GCGC?  There were some aerials posted not too long ago of Springhaven that showed what looked like features found at GCGC... at least in photos I've seen.  It seems unlike many of the other courses in the GAP, Springhaven is on a relatively flat parcel of land, and would lend itself, at that time, to mimic the features found at  Garden City.

[Thomas MacWood]

This is another interesting tidbit - again from way back in 1906, in an article about Kirkarldy calling Myopia the best course he's played.

"...On  a   strict poll, however,  the professionals  would  vote for Myopia   as   the   first   course   in   the   East, Wheaton in   the   West,  Aiken in   the   South, and Lambton Country   Club  links in Toronto, the best in the North....That  two of   the   four --   Myopia   and   Alken --  owe   their excellence to   the   efforts   of   the   one   amateur has long been known --a sportsman who played and studied   golf   here   and   abroad   before undertaking to   put   his   ideas   into   a   course with the detail and thoroughness that have made him a leader at   field   sports, yachting, fishing and shooting. He   has   had   a   free hand and   the   hearty   cooperation   of   his   club committess, besides having the support of a brainy professional, John  Jones, at both Myopia  and  Aiken..."

Strangley, this "one amateur" is never mentioned by name...at least that i could see (the print is kind of garbled in places and makes it hard to read)

Peter

That is interesting. TE is right, there is no doubt who they are referring to. I didn't realize Jones moonlighted at Aiken as well. From what I understand Jones originally came from Hoylake, suggesting he was a disciple of Jack Morris.