[Joe Bausch]

Recently I bumped into this February 22, 1923 Public Ledger article by Frank McCracken.  It is the first article I've ever seen announcing the upcoming Ashbourne Country Club in Philly (now a recent NLE, ironically enough).  Everything I've ever heard or read in the past gives Frank Meehan the attribution, but this article would cast some doubt since McCracken says Willie Park is the architect. 

[D_Malley]

Joe,
It is interesting that both Meehan and Warner are mentioned,  which is the same two names associated with Paxon Hollow just a couple of years later. 

This is the first time i have heard Warner's name mentioned on a project other than PH.  It does seem to confirm that he and meehan were working together at that time.

[Joe Bausch]

Dan, from what I've read recently I believe Warner also oversaw the construction of Philly Cricket Club's Wissahickon course, which opened for play on July 4, 1923.

[Mike_Cirba]

I find the timeframe very interesting.   Isn't this around the creation of the 2nd course at Philmont, which just happened to be another Jewish club just a few miles up the road that has been attributed to Flynn.

[D_Malley]

did warner and meehan gain enough experience to go on their own and design and build PH by themselves in 1926?  or were they still working under someone else?

i realize that no one may be able to answer that, but inquiring minds may want to know.

[Mike_Cirba]

Meehan had plenty of design and construction experience by 1923, beginning at North Hills, then at Cobbs Creek, then Berwick, Sandy Run, and others.

I'm sure he would have been happy to defer to the great Willie Park though and this may help us prove that the first nine holes at Schulykill were Park, as well, as Meehan was involved there as well.

[Thomas MacWood]

This is the first I've seen Park with Ashbourne. CC of AC, Green Valley and Philmont were all Park designs from around 1920, 1921, 1922. When Park was designing Green Valley Philadelphia Cricket called him for advise on a second 18. I have no idea if he designed anything at PCC or not.

Park really didn't have his own construction crew, the closest thing would be Peterson, Sinclaire and Miller, a seed merchant out of NYC. His courses were built by a wide range of folks, which is why there is inconsistancy quality-wise from course to course.

I think Park's last advertisement which listed all his courses came in 1922, prior to Ashbourne. Later in 1923 he had a vervous breakdown and left the country.

[Kyle Harris]

This time frame is getting very close to the time when Willie Park left America to return to Musselburgh to convalesce and left his American projects to Mungo Park. Both Mungo and Willie were on site at the Penn State course during this time, as well as working on Maidstone. These are the only two courses of those mentioned so far that were listed under the "Supervised, planned and constructed" section of the ubiquitous 1922 advertisement.

The verbiage here seems to show that Park may have mailed in these plans, which he was known to do. Sadly, I've never played Ashbourne to comment on the greens.

A Park/Meehan connection is nice to find though.

[Bob Harris]

This is the first I've seen Park with Ashbourne. CC of AC, Green Valley and Philmont were all Park designs from around 1920, 1921, 1922. When Park was designing Green Valley Philadelphia Cricket called him for advise on a second 18. I have no idea if he designed anything at PCC or not.

Did Park design the original Green Valley in Roxborough?

I think that the current Green Valley (originally Marble Hall Links) was designed, owned and operated by Flynn.  Green Valley purchased Marble Hall in 1944, after Flynn's death, and moved from it's Philadelphia location to Lafayette Hill

[Mike_Cirba]

Bob Harris,

You're right that the original Marble Hall links were designed by Flynn, but that wasn't the original course for the Green Valley Club.   

I'm forgetting right now exactly where the Park course was, but it was in that same general vicinity.

Thanks
Mike

[Bob Harris]

Bob Harris,

You're right that the original Marble Hall links were designed by Flynn, but that wasn't the original course for the Green Valley Club.   

I'm forgetting right now exactly where the Park course was, but it was in that same general vicinity.

Thanks
Mike

The original course was in the Roxborough section of Philadelphia.  Not far from Walnut Lane GC.

[wsmorrison]

Bob,

Are you sure about that?  I thought Green Valley's original course was near Joshua Rd and Hector Street in Conshohocken.

[Kyle Harris]

Bob,

Are you sure about that?  I thought Green Valley's original course was near Joshua Rd and Hector Street in Conshohocken.

Bob is correct. The original course was located at Ridge Ave. and Livezey St.

[Bob Harris]

I find the timeframe very interesting.   Isn't this around the creation of the 2nd course at Philmont, which just happened to be another Jewish club just a few miles up the road that has been attributed to Flynn.

Considering the history of the clubs, I find it very interesting that the 3 Jewish clubs in the Philadelphia area in the 1920s (Philmont, Ashbourne,Green Valley) have a connection to Willie Park.  Knowing how competitive these clubs were with each other, you would have thought they would have used different architects.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I have always thought that Asbourne was founded around 1915 but since the club NLE there's no info at gapgolf.org

[Joe Bausch]

I have always thought that Asbourne was founded around 1915 but since the club NLE there's no info at gapgolf.org

S2, Finegan writes that Ashbourne started to form in 1922 and opened for play in 1923, which fits with the article above.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bob,

Are you sure about that?  I thought Green Valley's original course was near Joshua Rd and Hector Street in Conshohocken.

Wayne,

That was Roxborough Country Club, which later became a completely new course with Rees Jones's Eagle Lodge, which later became a completely new course with Warren Henderson/Gary Player's ACE Club.

3 wholly different courses on the exact same site...pretty remarkable, I'd say.

I did start a thread about that at one point, but I don't think people knew what the hell I was talking about. 

[Mike_Cirba]

I have always thought that Asbourne was founded around 1915 but since the club NLE there's no info at gapgolf.org

S2, Finegan writes that Ashbourne started to form in 1922 and opened for play in 1923, which fits with the article above.

Actually Joe...I think this is simply just more anti-Philadelphia propaganda.

After all, we insular guys don't want nun of them outsiders comin in here and designing our stuff.

It was Meehan I tell you...not Park.

Just like we've always been so defensive about the second course at Philmont....it HAD to be Flynn....we've never accepted that it was Park.   


Actually, truth be told, we're the ones who dig that stuff up so this whole so-called "Philadelphia Syndrome" is just so much crap.

[Thomas MacWood]

Here is an old thread regarding the Philmont mystery started by Kyle.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,19797.0.html

[Mike_Cirba]

Here is an old thread regarding the Philmont mystery started by Kyle.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,19797.0.html

Boy Tom...I have to say...

It was a whole lot nicer when we were all working together instead of at odds.   

A whole lot more productive and educational too!

[Thomas MacWood]

No doubt, the good old days, when one could explore an attribution without being accused of having an hidden agenda. If that thread had been started today I reckon someone would be accusing someone else of being a self serving revisionist.

[Joe Bausch]

Just an update:  sometimes I forget about stuff I have laying around in folders.  Very early on in my quest for info about Cobb's Creek I found this nuggest from Perry Lewis in the Inky (February 3, 1923) and it only goes to reconfirm Park doing Ashbourne.  It is just so sad this course is sitting there unused.  I think about how neat this place must have been for the first few decades when the club was healthy and the original design was unadulterated!

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