Another Lawsonia Fan

[Brent Carlson]

Lawsonia is often discussed on this board so I played the course this past weekend.  It was designed in 1930 by Langford and Moreau.  As others have stated, this course is a treat.  The conditions plays fast and firm, has great green complexes and interesting strategy.

My ratings of Wisconsin courses that I have played:

1. Lawsonia Links
2. Erin Hills
3. Whistling Straits

Not a bad deal either at 1/10 of the greens fee at the Straits course.

Of course you have already seen pictures of Lawsonia, but a few more cannot hurt.

The approach to par 4 #1



#2 approach - a blind tee ball par 4



#2 green



#4 - the not quite redan par 3



#6 - semi dogleg right par 4 with fantastic green





#7 green with a boxcar buried beneath



#9 par 5 tee shot - bite off as much as you wish



#10 par 3 - 240 yards



#11 par 5



the typical bunkering style on the course



looking back down 11



#13 par 5




#15 par 4


For those of you who haven't played here, it is well worth the drive to Green Lake.

Let's hope they don't build the houses on the back nine

[jeffwarne]

Brent,
I played there Saturday.
I'd reverse Lawsonia and Erin Hills in your rankings, but I share your high opinion on Lawsonia.
Quite a contrast between the lack of earth moving at Erin and the work of Langford and Moreau which resembles  "Steam shovel" Banks and Raynor as well as MacDonald, but I loved both courses.
Nobody around on Saturday either. We played in 3:30.
Great pictures

[Brent Carlson]

Jeff,

There is no doubt that Erin Hills is very good as well. 

Are Langford and Moreau courses considered the "national" style?  What other architects designed in that manner?

Brent,
I played there Saturday.
I'd reverse Lawsonia and Erin Hills in your rankings, but I share your high opinion on Lawsonia.
Quite a contrast between the lack of earth moving at Erin and the work of "Steam shovel" Banks, but I loved both courses.
Nobody around on Saturday either. We played in 3:30.
Great pictures

[JNagle]

Ron Forse and I received a call from Mark Studer (Oakmont C.C.) yesterday as he and a friend were driving in the gates of Lawsonia.  He took Ron's advice from years past and after officiating a match at Milwaukee decided to head to Lawsonia.  The conversation was typical until he rounded the corner and saw some of the features.  It was like a kid awakening to find the presents that Santa had left.  This morning much the same after he played the course.

I toured the course a few weeks ago (5-6th time there) and I am still amazed at what I find.

[Jerry Kluger]

The approach shot into #6 looks incredibly challenging - downhill lie into an elevated green - is it as difficult as it looks?

A friend recently returned from a trip and played Erin Hills - he said the conditioning as questionable at best - has anyone else had a similar experience?

[Phil McDade]

The approach shot into #6 looks incredibly challenging - downhill lie into an elevated green - is it as difficult as it looks?

Yes it is, and the picture doesn't do justice to the green, which is a real two-tier affair, with essentially the left third of the green significantly below the upper two-third, right-side tier of the green. A pin on the lower left tier is particularly devilish, and the perched-up green just shrugs off anything not well-struck. And it's hard to run up a shot (although it can be done), because it's quite steep climb up to the green from the fairway immediately fronting the green.

On a course with a bunch of very good par 4s, the 6th might be the best.

[Dan Moore]

Here is a good view of the diagonally tiered green on #6.

[Brad Swanson]

The approach shot into #6 looks incredibly challenging - downhill lie into an elevated green - is it as difficult as it looks?

A friend recently returned from a trip and played Erin Hills - he said the conditioning as questionable at best - has anyone else had a similar experience?

The greens were fairly bumpy and slow 2 weekends ago due to their recent aeration.  I'd be playing in one of the groups Dan Moore has set up for Mid October in a heartbeat if I wasn't traveling that weekend, as the course comes to life in the fall in a big way.  The greens get firm and fairly slick come late September.

{EDIT} Though you were referring to the conditioning at Lawsonia.  I don't have a clue what kind of shape Erin Hills is in.


Cheers,
Brad

[jeffwarne]

Erin Hills greens were in fantastic condition last friday.
It rained 2 inches Thursday day and night
12.2 stimp (too fast  in my opinion to truly enjoy the contours unless you are a great putter) and  perfectly smooth.
Firm enough given the rain.
Fairways were spotty, a bit long,fescue, relatively firm -I played quite a few runups despite the rain.
a nice natural look though and I can't say a shot was adversely affected by the fairways which were recovering from June floods in certain places..

I will say Whistling Straits fairways were a bit more linksy (tighter and the grass condition looked more like a traditional links-despite multiple infestations of rogue bent volunteers)

Lawsonia was fine, a little thatchy but just fine.

[RJ_Daley]

Jim, I'm happy to see that Mark was duly impressed.  I bumped back a few brews with him the night before after the days stroke play at MCC.  I'm sure Mark was already saturated with seeing a fine course while working (not that he doesn't see one of the world's best already at home!  )  So, if he was giddy, that has to be some very good validation of Lawsonia's greatness. 

[Adam Clayman]

Erin Hills came up twice today. One was Edward's report. While he had a blast he had real issues with the turf. Specifically the lush rough adjacent to fairways and the green collars. He said it was impossible to putt a ball from the collars because of some swirl like affect the grass has. It wasn't easy for me to understand it, maybe it's a specific type of Fescue versus a blend? I don't know, anyone who can shed light would be appreciated.

The other was during my round at Colorado Golf Club. The words were unsolicited and just came out of the gentleman's mouth. "This is way better than Erin Hills". Implying it could easily hold a US Open with the added wonderment of why the USGA is so enamored with the place.(EH)

Back to topic, Lawsonia is better than remembered. Forse's improvements really accentuated the design attributes.

[jeffwarne]

Adam,
At EH,
It was more difficult to putt from the collars as the grass was not mown tightly and therefore demanded a bit more skill and judgement than is required when putting from a super tight collar which might roll at a pace of a good green 20 years ago.
It was compouned by the high speed of the greens as well.
The collar and fairway grass was definitely not as tight as Whistling Straits

I embraced this as a more natural trait that added to the challenge, much like the courses of years ago, but some want super tight, perfect maintenance.

[Chuck Brown]

Is there some comparsion between Lawsonia and the Raynor-designed Maple Bluff?

[RJ_Daley]

Chuck, I think you somehow got Maple Bluff stuck in your mind, and confused it to Blue Mound.  Maple Bluff in Madison is listed in C&W as Tweedie NLE and some non-archie Ferry, and then Killian and Nugent.  No way no how is Laswonia comparable to Maple Bluff or vice versa...

As for Blue Mound, I first was able to play it about 4 years ago, in the aftermath of Hepner's work to de-tree it and shine up mowing lines etc.  I was immediately struck at the similar feel to Lawsonia.  Big earthworks greens and features, bold green contours, and similar bunkerandmound complexes are the thread that runs through them. 

[Phil McDade]

I, too, have seen several references to Raynor at Maple Bluff (just a few miles from my front door!), but have never been able to document what it could be. The course itself credits Tweedie with the original design, and there has been work done over the years, the last I believe by Arthur Hills. It's a very good course, certainly the best in the Madison area, but nothing that resembles a Raynor.

[RJ_Daley]

Erin Hills greens were in fantastic condition last friday.
It rained 2 inches Thursday day and night
12.2 stimp (too fast  in my opinion to truly enjoy the contours unless you are a great putter) and  perfectly smooth.

 

I'm impressed!  I woudn't think they could possibly get them rolling a fraction over 11.975 after such rain! 

[Mike Hendren]

I consider Lawsonia and LuLu as being two of the most delightful golf courses I have ever played.   Classics in the truest sense of the word. 

Mike

[jeffwarne]

Erin Hills greens were in fantastic condition last friday.
It rained 2 inches Thursday day and night
12.2 stimp (too fast  in my opinion to truly enjoy the contours unless you are a great putter) and  perfectly smooth.

 

I'm impressed!  I woudn't think they could possibly get them rolling a fraction over 11.975 after such rain! 

RJ,
I think stimp readings are nonsense but....
with the USGA there that day I think they felt compelled to get them fast and proclaim it from the rooftops (although decimal stimp readings are laughable)
They were fast

[Dan Moore]

In looking at Brent's pictures I noticed the large tree on 13 is gone.  Last year when we were there the tree looked damaged and smaller tree had been planted in its shadow.  You can see the small tree in the photos of 13 and 16.  Here is a view of 13 showing the original tree. 

[Brad Swanson]

Yes, Dan the old tree is gone, and the new tree looks pretty stupid in its place.  They should remove it and just let it be treeless IMHO.

Brad

[RJ_Daley]

Brad, what would you think of Forse and Nagle putting a properly size proportioned gull-wing grass bunker there in the exact style of L&M's?  I would say that it would be seen from the tee, and be just offset from the mound on the far right side, just a little beyond the one on the right, and partially down the slope.  It wouldn't be as big as most of the gull-winged ones that you see throughout the course, but exact in design styling.  I think that it would serve a better shot shaping in that the tree was a vertical hazard nipping balls that would then do anything from bound in any direction, to drop down into the ravine.   With a ground hazard like a grass gullwing, it would be more of a defined penalty, with a more traditional golf shot to extracate from that grass bunker.  After flirting with the new bunker to gain a bit of shorter approach, it would leave in the 150-90 yards from the green.   After placing your ball on the tee shot, the strategy for you big bangers is still go for the green or the steep upslope to the green.  For us shorter players, we would have to decide the lay-up option of trying to hit it generally a bit favoring the left pre-ravine for the shorter line into the mayber 175 yard approach over the ravine and up the steep hill and taking on the left green side bunker, or middle of FW leaving even a longer shot of about 180-200, and on a more open green up the right.

You would see the new bunker just peeking into view on the far left  beyond the existing eschlon bunkers up left.

[Brad Swanson]

Dick,
   I think #13 is plenty of challenge without the tree or any other hazard in its stead.  Remember, there's a water hazard to deal with at the bottom of the hill to the left, and the severe upslope is going to make the approach to the green totally blind and challenging enough.  As far as me reaching in two, I thought my rapidly declining game demonstrated at our last round at Lawsonia was evidence enough to rule that out (at least from the tips).  Also, one needs to stick with a strategy on their second shot to lay-up to the very bottom of the hill for their approach or try to hit the smaller benched-in landing area halfway up the slope.  #13 is a very stout par 5 and holds its own as a 3 shot par 5 without the tree needing a replacement IMHO. 

Brad

[RJ_Daley]

#13 is a very stout par 5 and holds its own as a 3 shot par 5 without the tree needing a replacement IMHO.

ohhh, I don't know how stout Brad... since I birdied it my last two times to play it this summer.   

[Please indulge me the bragadoccio, as it is one of the only highlights of my otherwise summer of disintegrating back health, and poor play...  ]

[Brad Swanson]

BTW, Dan's picture of #6 clearly shows haw this green is nearly the exact inverse of the Raynor "toilet seat/bathtub" template green.

Brad

[RJ_Daley]

Yikes, and you say I'm stretching the interpretation of #4 to say it is a Redan when I say it just needs a slightly less kickplate to make it the perfect REdan!  Here you are inverting and turning the green inside out, and applying a Raynor bathtub template to a longish par 4 rather than a par 3!  What next, 'the boxcar' is a perfect drop shot short from 8 tee?