A view of the flag on dogleg holes

[Ed Oden]

This is one great photo.  I was trying to explain to one of the NC boys about this sort of design where the flag is on display for a dogleg.  It naturally tugs the golfer this way which usually leads to disaster.  The lack of this sort of visual pull toward the flag was one of my criticisms about Duke when they had a few clear opportunities to do so.


Ciao

I thought this was a really good comment by Sean Arble on the Salisbury CC thread.  I like his description of the design concept and agree that a view of the flag seems to have its own psychological gravitational pull.  Does this feature work best on short par 4s?  Should it always be used to entice you down a less desirable path or is it also ok as a guide to the preferred line?  Here are a few other photos in my stash that I think implement this concept to varying degrees.

Ballyneal #7

Ballyneal #12

Sand Hills #2 - The flag can be seen just to the left of the knob peaking out on the right side of the fairway.

Sand Hills #8

Old Town #1 - This hole appears almost straight away but is really a dogleg left with the preferred line off the tee at the right fairway bunker.

Shinnecock #14

Bandon Dunes #16

Huntingdon Valley #4-A


What do you think?

Ed

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ed,
My view is probably too simple. It doesn't matter to me if I can see the flag on a dogleg
or not,  I'm pretty sure I'm being sucked in either way so I play (or try to) away
from that side. Good concept though.

The one that holds the most temptation for me is BD #16, the idea of hanging one out over the dangerous right side and fading it back looks like too much fun to resist. I will try that shot one day!  

p.s. it reminds me of #4 at Fishers Island, same dilemma.

[David Stamm]

With the tree clearing it's really neat to see the green on 16 at Pasatiempo.

[Ian_L]

I'd never thought of this before, I'll keep an eye out for this next time I play.

[Anthony Fowler]

Very interesting observation.  I can't help but swing at flag sticks, no matter how hard I try.

16 at BD is a fun example because the correct line off the tee is so far from where your subconscious mind wants to go.

7 at Ballyneal is not a great example IMO because the correct line really isn't too far from the stick.

[Phil Benedict]

The flag really does exert a mysterious gravitational pull on players (idiots) like me, especially on a hole where you can get your drive pretty close to the green if you take an aggressive line.

Tom Doak says this is one of his favorite architectural tricks.

[Matt_Cohn]

I'm not sure these are all great examples.

Doesn't this whole idea work 10 times better if you think there's fairway, or at least safety, on a direct line when there actually is trouble?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Ed

An unimpeded view to the flag is best practice yet sadly misunderstood on so many classic courses where trees have been allowed to block these siren's-song holes.  Cape-hole greens perhaps are another example of this feature.

Interestingly, driving a golf ball is analogous to driving a race car: you must not look where you are going but rather where you want to go.  (In racing this is known as "ocular driving.")

It's a hard habit to break in both sports!

Tom Doak I think is a master at designing this aspect of angles.  (Not sure how well he drives, though!)

Mark

[Jason Topp]

[Mark Bourgeois]

Yes, that's it: different-sized flagpoles do the trick, too!

[Matt_Cohn]

No offense because I love RM #10, but it's not a good example of this sucker effect. It's so obvious that there's trouble on line with the flag that nobody is going to get "fooled". They might make a bad decision, but they're not going to get fooled. Compare the original with the modified version below, with raised ground making the left bunker blind from the tee, and giving the appearance that a shot at the flag will turn out just fine.

I'd say that a *lot* more golfers will make a mistake left on my version because it seems like you could go over there and be OK.

Of course, the same bunker is sitting there, right behind the mound. It would be much more of a sucker effect.

[TEPaul]

Ed:

In my opinion, it is one of the simplest and most effective architectural techniques there is, and ironically generally for the good to very good player. It just sort of jumbles their concentration and that fact was confirmed to me by Nick Faldo while on the 10th tee at Merion. And that Faldo is one really impressive observer and thinker, in my opinion---and about all things golf and certainly including golf architecture.

[Ed Oden]

After a little more thought, I have two observations on this design feature.

First, while I think it generally works best on short par 4s where driving the green or getting close to the green is possible, it can also work on longer holes.  For example, I think this concept works really well on Old Town #1, which is a 423 yard hole with a creek bed crossing the fairway.  Here is the picture from the tee again followed by one showing the approach from the bottom of the valley.


You've got to avoid the temptation to take what appears from the tee to be a more direct line to the pin.  So I don't think this idea has to be limited to short holes.

Second, I don't really care if the flag is luring you down a bad road or whether it is showing you the best line.  The key for me is the uncertainty from the tee as to which is the correct choice.  So I think there has to be some hidden component to hole, whether it be in the landing area or a partially obstructed view or otherwise.  I do not believe it works when everything is "right there in front of you".  So upon further reflection, the photos I posted of Sand Hills #8 and HVCC #4 probably do not represent this concept.

Ed

[Bruce Leland]

Ed, a great thread with outstanding examples and photos.   I think it is deep in every golfer, that go for broke spirit of Arnie Palmer, despite what the architect presents you visually as a "safe" route to the green.  I agree that this Hero complex exhibits itself more readily on a short or drive-able par 4.  Good stuff, this!

[Bart Bradley]

Ed:

A few observations of my own:

1.  You sure have played some nice courses lately

2.  You always claim to be something less than a deep thinker on golf architecture....you are wrong.

3.  I agree that it doesn't matter if the pin shows a good line or a bad one...the architect can toy with your mind.  Maybe the first time he/she uses this technique the ideal line is right at the flagstick; but watch out for the second time!

4.  It always seems like a pleasant surprise when you step up to a hole and initially think you can't see the flag, then scan the horizon and just see a glimpse...Ballyneal#7 is a perfect example...and it then becomes all the more alluring.

5.  You are one hell of a photographer.

Really cool,

Bart

[Ed Oden]

Bart:

You are far too kind.  My deepest thoughts are whether to order a Bud Light or a Michelob Light.  As for photographic skills (or lack thereof), my best work typically coincides with good company and bad ballstriking. 

I agree with your thought that just a slight glimpse of the flag adds to the allure.  The temptation to go for the green at Ballyneal #7 and Bandon Dunes #16 is virtually irresistable for that very reason.  Would that still be the case if the view were clearer?  I doubt it.  Perhaps this is part of the "hero complex" Bruce Leland describes.

But I also think the more subtle approach shown at Salisbury #16 or Old Town #1 is strategically just as effective.  These holes do not involve decisions of whether to go for the green.  Rather, placement off the tee is the key to success.  And the "gravitational pull" of the viewable flag fights like a cross wind to keep you from accomplishing the task.

Ed

PS - Sean Arble deserves the credit for this thread, not me.

[Jon Spaulding]

Great topic. I feel this is a great feature, on a limited basis. LA North has a couple of strong examples, not of the blatant dogleg variety, but strategicically requiring a shot shape & placement. In each case the pin pulls your eye to the preferred line....then asks...do you have the shot? Some tree clearing on the LH side would make #10 an excellent example.

#16



#17

[Kalen Braley]

A few to add..

[Jason Topp]

I recall this being a design principle of one of the architects - that the player see where he is eventually headed.  Anyone know who that is?

[Sean_A]

If I recall correctly, the idea of a visible dogleg really and truly hit home after playing Mid-Pines 4th hole.  Its a shortie, but not really reachable for me.  Still, people see that flag and are drawn in that direction.  There is a tree sitting just right of the tiger line,  but the real source of difficulty is the approach to the green from this angle.  It requires a deft touch to a raised green over a right hand side bunker to a narrow green with good contours. 

I do think the concept works on any length two or three shotter, in fact, it may even work better on longer holes because it can be is plainly obvious that hitting in the direction of the flag is most likely fool hearty, but we still do it.  The great thing is that this issue an entirely mental issue which goes to show how much the thinking should be required in golf. 

I struggle mightily with Burnham's 16th.  A player has no business going right of the centreline bunker, yet where am I all the time - stranded right.  There is an unnatural feeling to going left toward real trouble of oob (but there is plenty of room) when all the room exists on the right.  Its a very clever hole, Burnham's 16th is.

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

To Ed's second point in Reply #12, to Sean's last post and to Jason's question: offset tees are another manifestation of the core concept.  Donald Ross did this a lot, didn't he?

(Suggested name for the core concept: "optical angles.")

Mark

[Matthew Mollica]

When played from the back tee, Doak's 12th at St Andrews Gunnamatta is a perfect example of exactly what's discussed in this thread. A dogleg right, with the green and flag just visible away in the distance.  Safe yet boring expansive fairway sits immediately before the golfer, and seemingly benign light rough and a little broken ground on the direct line between tee and flag.  Yet the ground contours conceal the fact that the carry to fairway on this line is longer than it appears. Importantly, the angle of approach is often worse from here too, when compared to that afforded by drives on a distinctly different line, away from the tempting sight of the flag. I hope someone has a picture they can post of the hole. I've searched my archives and haven't got one that shows this facet of design well...

MM

[Ed Oden]

To Ed's second point in Reply #12, to Sean's last post and to Jason's question: offset tees are another manifestation of the core concept.  Donald Ross did this a lot, didn't he?

(Suggested name for the core concept: "optical angles.")

Mark

Mark, do you mean that the tees are offset to steer you toward the flag rather than down the fairway?  If so, I had that same thought.  But if you look back at the pictures posted in this thread, the tee boxes and/or markers are typically pointing toward the more conservative line.  I am surprised by that since I was expecting that the teeing angle might add to the deception.  On the contrary, it looks to me like the architects are generally telling us exactly where to go but we as golfers still can't avoid the gravitational pull of the flag.  So we have no one to blame but ourselves.  Are there any psychologists out there that can explain this phenomenon?

Ed

[Mike_Cirba]

At the time it was built, I'm imagining that the 12th at Pine Valley was the king of this concept.   As someone mentioned, this usually works best on a short par four where one feels perhaps subconsciously  they can get the tee shot very, very close.   That hole would have been an ideal example.

Unfortunately, unimpeded tree growth over the years has taken away this temptation.   Now, it doesn't take any self-discipline at all to just aim down the right side, away from the green.

Hopefully, someday.....it will be recovered and the club will scale back the trees all the way to the ridge line, exposing not only the flagstick but a minefield of George Crump's bunkers that have been buried, as well.

[Jerry Kluger]

Does this concept work as over time the player becomes familiar with the hole and is aware that following the more direct route can lead to disaster?