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John Kavanaugh

Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #50 on: September 09, 2008, 07:18:01 PM »


No, not at all.  I am saying that men should be more honest in person that on this open site where the whole world can read what they say and it becomes documented.  In other words, it is easier to spout off in private.  My wife insists that I text most of our communications because she says I type nicer than I speak.  It is so true because I know she saves my texts.

Whoa.

You type nicer than you speak?

Who doesn't?  No way did John and Abigail Adams speak to each other as eloquently as they wrote.  Just this Sunday I woke to a text from my wife asking me to pray for our superintendent.  Instead of replying in my usual judgemental tone I sent her back a note comparing her beauty to the sunrise hitting the hood of my Toyota.  People with three children don't have time for that kind of exchange in real life.


TEPaul

Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #51 on: September 09, 2008, 07:23:13 PM »
"Instead of replying in my usual judgemental tone I sent her back a note comparing her beauty to the sunrise hitting the hood of my Toyota."


Kavanaugh:

If the road building or paving business fails I swear you could get a job writing for any professional comedian out there. 

Dan Herrmann

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #52 on: September 09, 2008, 07:25:36 PM »
Tom - I couldn't agree more about John.  Last comic standing?

Mike Sweeney

Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #53 on: September 09, 2008, 07:48:01 PM »
On that note. During my wifes recent trip to California I got a bit lonely and texted her my ideas for her homecoming. My daughter picked up the phone and nausea ensued. 

Was she in SoCal or NoCal?

I don't think you will ever play golf in NoCal, East Coast or Ireland (your ancestry). Why is that?

Bob_Huntley

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #54 on: September 09, 2008, 07:51:59 PM »
I agree with Bob H...well said.

I don't.  If I was in someones living room and they told what I considered a lie about something I love I would prefer to bloody their carpet to mine.  I do not know what world you guys live in that you don't call a douche a douche simply because you are face to face with that person.  As a matter of fact I find that the written word a more cautious medium than spoken words because of the time it takes to type and the editing process. 

John,

Unless the utterance was a proven fact, how on earth would you know that anything said in a conversation between A and B was a lie? As for bloodying carpets, you have always seem to to me to have been a man of reason and gentle of heart and mind. :)

Bob

Ronald Montesano

  • Total Karma: -42
Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #55 on: September 09, 2008, 07:55:51 PM »
I get what John is saying...during courtship, my future bride and I couldn't really keep a phone conversation going, but man were our letters sweet.  This thread was a great exchange, a tennis match for me.  I went to one side, then another, then back, and finally, the ball ended up balanced on the net.  Well defended on all sides.  I love this forum.
Coming in 2025
~Robert Moses Pitch 'n Putt
~~Sag Harbor
~~~Chenango Valley
~~~~Sleepy Hollow
~~~~~Montauk Downs
~~~~~~Sunken Meadow
~~~~~~~Some other, posh joints ;)

Sean Leary

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #56 on: September 09, 2008, 08:02:18 PM »
I went to one side, then another, then back, and finally, the ball ended up balanced on the net. 

not that there is anything wrong with that;)

Just kidding. Sorry, couldn't resist.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #57 on: September 09, 2008, 08:08:27 PM »
Thanks.  The sun is setting on the back of my Toyota on the way to a corporate outing.  I need to watch the road.

I have been in one fight in my adult life and despite thinking that I won, I married the prize.  I hope to never fight again.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #58 on: September 09, 2008, 08:21:50 PM »
Quote
Do you know what, Mr. Kennedy, I live right across the street from someone who is known in this community as "The M&M Heiress". When she got married recently and since she and her new husband's names begin with "C" she had a whole bunch of sacks of M&Ms made up that had "C&C" on them - TEPaul

You should see where I work.  ;)
                                                 
                                                 
                                                 
                                                 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike Golden

Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #59 on: September 09, 2008, 08:47:56 PM »
I've never made a single post on any Merion-related topic but I wonder why any Merion member would care one single bit about allegations from 2 outsiders who have never visited the club, have never seen any internal documents, and have only secondary and tertiary documents to support a theory that is at most accepted by 700 people worldwide (I'm assuming that 1/2 of GCA might go along, in reality it's probably many fewer than that).

If, during my time at Lake Merced, soemone had developed a theory that Locke and MacKenzie had not done the original design work about 7 years apart, it would have been greeted with yawns in the Men's Grill.  I suspect the Merion cognescenti are having similar reactions.

Unfortunately so much of what happens at GCA nowadays turns into personal insults among the participants it detracts from the best parts of our community, which for me is meeting others, enjoying interesting, fun rounds of golf at a variety of locales, and actually learning something about this great game and great (and not so great) course by osmosis and observation.  One thing I have figured out about internet discussion boards is that you can never convince anyone of anything, it's too bad some of you who take this so seriously haven't figured that out yet.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #60 on: September 09, 2008, 09:03:26 PM »
Mike Golden,

So you would invalidate the discovery that Crump committed suicide with a pistol rather than an abcessed tooth run amuck, AND, that Wilson never sailed to the U.K. to study the great courses prior to 1912 because NON-MEMBERS made these discoveries ?

You would automatically dismiss any and all research that came from Non-Members ?  ?   ?   WHY ?

Doesn't that breed an incestuous, convoluted historical record based on a self serving agenda rather than the facts ?

It would seem reasonable that all research efforts would be appreciated, especially after the light of scrutiny had determined their veracity.

If the research produced conflicting information, and it couldn't be disproved, it shouldn't be dismissed.

However, just because it can't be disproved doesn't mean that it should be accepted as the Gospel.

When you have two or more theories/premises/histories that conflict with one another, that should promote additional research in order to vet each of the conflicting theories/premises/histories until a prudent person could draw a reasonable conclusion, OR concede that one of several possibilties remain plausable.

But, in no event should any efforts at research be rejected simply because the researchers aren't members of the subject club.

TEPaul

Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #61 on: September 09, 2008, 09:51:13 PM »
Mike Golden:

My God, is it good to see you on here again. Talk about an old-timer in the annals of GCA websites!

Forget what Patrick just said to you because it doesn't really go right to your point about what Merion members specifically think of all these Merion threads between MacWood and Moriarty and us on the supposed other side.

Patrick doesn't know that because he doesn't really know them or talk to them regularly but I sure do, and so does Wayne.

Almost all of them, to a man, when they heard an essay on here might be coming out basically about more Macdonald participation in the creation of their course (don't forget it took a while for the essayist to get it out once he told us he was going to do it) they were all both expectant and pretty excited to hear the new details. That did surprise me a bit, but that's the way Merion is. They were in no way or wise defensive as these two who know nothing about the club said they were and still say both they and we are.

But in evaluating it I figure these people from Merion who care at all about this kind of thing are pretty sophisticated people, and they all know NGLA, Macdonald and what he was in American architecture and they also know the details of their club's history better than a MacWood or Moriarty did by about a factor of ten.

So, they were expectant and sort of pumped that Macdonald might have had more to do with their course than their history has explained.

And then they read that article! What a letdown it generally was for them all. These people are no dumbees and they can all recognize a really bad a priori essay and article when they see one.

After that I doubt many of them really bothered to follow these argumentative threads for the last four months because they saw no point in it. That essay was a real letdown, totally illogical, a torturing of events, people and reports they know are true and they didn't see the point of pursuing the subject on here.

The way this essayist treats a member and friends of the club and seems to feel he's entitled to complete Merion archive access because he says he's interested in Merion's history and how he and his coohort MacWood constantly say everybody here is defensive and protecting an historically unfactual legend (The Philadelphia Syndrome coigned years ago by MacWood;) ) if the club's private records aren't shown to him or them is a whole different matter, however.

When he revises it all, as he claims he will, is he going to get their attention again? I doubt that. At this point Merion doesn't seem to see any reason not to go with their recorded history and Wayne work on it. This essay has basically been a bust to get logical minds to reanalyze Merion's architectural history for architectural attribution. It is their long-going history and it's factual.

The 1912 trip is a whole different matter, though. That was a great discovery even if it is somewhat trivial and irrelevent to who created Merion East and West. The 1912 trip and potentially no trip in 1910 just doesn't mean Wilson and his committee did not design the course because this essay concluded if he did not go in 1910 he had to be too much the novice to have been capable of doing it with his committee. Something like that is just not a fact that the essayist's a priori reasoning established, and it never will.

That was just a really poor conclusion or inference on the essayist's part. The point is Wilson and his committee did it all anyway just as Merion's history explains.

The other discovery which was made by us is the 1910 trip story and that the seven months and the reams of drawings probably didn't occur until a half century after the creation of Merion East and West.

Something like that is hard to get out of people's minds. I do not think Moriarty or MacWood have even figured that one out yet and what it means to everything they tried to do and prove on here during these years of Merion threads and with this essay and the discussions and arguments following it.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 09:59:51 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Golden

Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #62 on: September 09, 2008, 11:55:55 PM »
I wrote a long and thoughtful reponse which my computer just ate ???

Essentially, though, I don't understand why everyone feels the need to discredit the other side in this argument.  Merion has a complete history of the course as it evolved and I doubt whether anyone at Merion would fail to admit (or not want to admit) that C B MacDonald had input into the creation of the course.  It seems as if the whole commotion is how much input he had and whether Wilson was the primary architect.  I found a blog post from Ian Andrew from 2007 about Merion, this seems a pretty reasonable overview of the course creation:

Architect #20 – Hugh Wilson
 
Best Course: Merion Golf Club

Other notable work: Merion West, Cobb’s Creek, (finished last 4 holes at Pine Valley)

Overview: Merion Cricket Club like so many other clubs decided to move to upgrade their facilities. Lucky for them that Hugh Wilson had both the time and the interest to spend seven months abroad studying the great courses of the British Isles. He even sought advice from C.B. MacDonald and went to see the National Golf Links to assist him with ideas for the new course he would build.

Praise for the work: There have been many suggestions that Wilson adapted and borrowed famous holes to create the holes at Merion but I personally don’t see the some of connections that have been drawn. Merion has a full set of unique holes each in response to the land that Wilson was given to work with. What makes Wilson’s work at Merion special was how he found these eighteen great holes on such a small and tight site. There is no doubt in my mind that this is the perfect routing for this property.
 


The famous 11th green site


Wilson also brought with him a few architectural innovations of his own. The bunkering was outstanding not only for the placement and the strategic implications it had, but also for how visible they were and the aesthetic quality they brought to the golf course. The “white faces” created a beauty not seen at other courses, but also a new level of intimidation by there size and placement. It is believed that Wilson used bed sheets in the field to review the bunker locations and lines until he was happy and then the crew would set about building the bunkers. Wilson’s bunkering at Merion taught architects that bunkers had a visual importance as well as a strategic importance.

Criticisms: The questions on his inclusion will always stem from the fact that his place in architecture is built on one great course and that the fact that his other courses are only interesting at best. The role of evolution, Joe Valentine and William Flynn also deserve some credit for Merion. Finally, that the course is too short to be great. All I can say is that I feel sorry for anyone who can criticize the course after playing it.
 

The West course at Merion
Great Quotes: “Looking back on the work, I feel certain that we would never have attempted to carry it out if we had realized one-half the things we did not know.”

His best: Merion Golf Club - I personally feel there is no finer routing in golf. The course has 18 great holes and the most interesting flow of any course I know. It begins fairly strong, which forces the player to work hard at the beginning. The course then becomes short and full of decisions through the middle where the player is under self imposed pressure to score. Finally the last 5 holes are as hard a run of golf as you can find anywhere and the player is literally trying to hold on. The flow is as important as the holes themselves in creating greatness.
 

The 12th at Merion in 1924

What I take from him: He routed the course as the land gave it to him. He didn’t worry about par, mixing holes, or any other trivial standard. He took the time to find the best holes that the land would yield. The bunker visibility and scale is certainly something all architects have been inspired by and I think his influence in this area is underestimated.

It is now almost 100 years since Merion was created, it is unlikely that any new 'revelations' based on interpretation will make its way into the history books.  As for Crump's 'suicide' or death from oral surgery, what difference does it make in the development or evolution of Pine Valley-either way he was still dead, right?  In my book, the cause of that death is a personal, not public matter.

Merion, in the words of most experts, is one of the great golf courses in the world.  It evolved in a period of infancy in the development of courses in the US.  It is very difficult, at least in my mind, to think that a brief consultation by MacDonald could be the critical element in the development of the golf course, particularly on a piece of property that is so tight (I've never seen the property or course, I am just restating information presented by others.  However that happened it should be celebrated rather than argued, I doubt that anyone can disagree with that.

I worked in the microelectronics industry from 1968 through 2002, in a period where the technology evolved from simple discrete devices to complex microprocessors.  The only way this happened was through the collaboration of many, many scientists and engineers working for hundreds of companies worldwide.  Bob Noyce is considered by many the father of the microprocessor because he led Intel through the development but it is common knowledge but did not sit there designing the circuits, he simply led the work and had the vision. C B MacDonald, at least according to what I have read, is the first one to bring the concepts of UK golf design to the US and created NGLA and other fabulous golf courses.  I fail to see why Hugh Wilson should be challenged as the designer of Merion nor can I see a reason why Wilson and other Golden Age designers should not pay hommage to MacDonald's work either.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #63 on: September 10, 2008, 06:10:51 AM »
Mike,

The other night my son and I watched a documentary on The History Channel that summarized the entire JFK assasination. It covered Oswald, The Mob, JFK the movie, Johnson and Jack Ruby. It was extremely well done with maybe only an open question or two about Jack Ruby. They had built computer models that addressed the "single bullet theory" and made it fact.

I thought your post was equally well done.

As a former Philly guy, I was really only shocked when Tom Paul said above that Merion (at least the minority that actually cares about this stuff, certainly most of my friends there do not really care) was very interested in the findings of David Moriarity's essay.

Philly has a long long history of being insular dating back on record to the 1844 Philadephia Nativism Riots so my view was that they wanted to preserve the legend of Hugh Wilson.

However, I believe Tom that his friends at Merion were interested and open to the historical questions, but unfortunately David's essay did not meet their expectations and I can see why.

It seems it should remain a "grey area" of sorts as you mention above until someone finds new evidence or builds some sort of JFK computer model. Of course, I doubt that it will stop on GCA for now.

PS. If you have an interest in playing Sugarloaf near Orlando at the end of the year with the former poster Pete Buczykowski and me, shoot me an IM.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2008, 06:19:34 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #64 on: September 10, 2008, 06:40:49 AM »
Mike G & Mike S,

Would you guys stop bringing commonsense, intelligence, and objective perspective to this thread!?!?   ;)

Really good summaries guys...terrrific stuff!

Thanks.  :)

Steve Lang

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #65 on: September 10, 2008, 09:34:40 AM »
 8)  perhaps 200 pages of rebuttal (the upcoming book) is not really necessary to bring the truth to light..

opinion, discourse, opinon, discourse..  no censurring please, just let the concise articulate points be made by the DG.. 



« Last Edit: September 10, 2008, 10:18:26 AM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Bob_Huntley

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #66 on: September 10, 2008, 10:42:49 AM »
Mike,

The other night my son and I watched a documentary on The History Channel that summarized the entire JFK assasination. It covered Oswald, The Mob, JFK the movie, Johnson and Jack Ruby. It was extremely well done with maybe only an open question or two about Jack Ruby. They had built computer models that addressed the "single bullet theory" and made it fact.

I thought your post was equally well done.

As a former Philly guy, I was really only shocked when Tom Paul said above that Merion (at least the minority that actually cares about this stuff, certainly most of my friends there do not really care) was very interested in the findings of David Moriarity's essay.

Philly has a long long history of being insular dating back on record to the 1844 Philadephia Nativism Riots so my view was that they wanted to preserve the legend of Hugh Wilson.

However, I believe Tom that his friends at Merion were interested and open to the historical questions, but unfortunately David's essay did not meet their expectations and I can see why.

It seems it should remain a "grey area" of sorts as you mention above until someone finds new evidence or builds some sort of JFK computer model. Of course, I doubt that it will stop on GCA for now.

PS. If you have an interest in playing Sugarloaf near Orlando at the end of the year with the former poster Pete Buczykowski and me, shoot me an IM.


Mike,

I also viewed the JFK program on the History Channel and seeing Costner as Garrison, made me realise that Oliver Stone, a brillant film maker,  is probably the best propagandist since Leni Riefenstahl.

Bob

Mike Hendren

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #67 on: September 10, 2008, 11:06:39 AM »
I'm reminded of the old joke:

Why are college faculty meetings so acrimonious?
Because there's so little at stake.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

JNC Lyon

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #68 on: September 10, 2008, 11:07:42 AM »
A fact checker shouldn't be needed.  As in any historical essay, authors of articles on this website should simply be required to provide footnotes and/or a bibliography.  This way, opinions can be stated freely and the reader can easily find the facts for himself.  Why should the publishing standard be any different for golf articles on this site??? This was the most frustrating thing about "The Greatest Game Ever Played." Mark Frost provided ZERO footnotes for a book filled with historical information.  This left no way for the reader to differentiate between fact and fiction.  The book is immensely interesting and entertaining, but it is hard to believe all of the claims Frost makes with such assurance.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Mike Sweeney

Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #69 on: September 10, 2008, 11:14:59 AM »

Mike,

I also viewed the JFK program on the History Channel and seeing Costner as Garrison, made me realise that Oliver Stone, a brillant film maker,  is probably the best propagandist since Leni Riefenstahl.

Bob

Stone is clearly a "10" on the Doak scale as a propagandist. Moriarity and MacWood maybe get a "6".

As Seinfeld fans, Dylan and Dad were laughing hysterically at "Newman" during the JFK Movie clips on the History Channel show. The parody on Seinfeld of the JFK Movie "Back and to the right" scene is an alltime great.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #70 on: September 10, 2008, 01:31:54 PM »
Stone is definitely high up on the propaganda scale, but Philly golf has sure developed its own interesting stories over the years, from Wilson's 1910 trip prior to designing Merion to Crump's tooth ache to Flynn designing a golf course at age 19. When propaganda is accepted as truth, heaven help those who challenge it.

Bill_McBride

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #71 on: September 10, 2008, 04:42:37 PM »

Mike,

I also viewed the JFK program on the History Channel and seeing Costner as Garrison, made me realise that Oliver Stone, a brillant film maker,  is probably the best propagandist since Leni Riefenstahl.

Bob

Stone is clearly a "10" on the Doak scale as a propagandist. Moriarity and MacWood maybe get a "6".

As Seinfeld fans, Dylan and Dad were laughing hysterically at "Newman" during the JFK Movie clips on the History Channel show. The parody on Seinfeld of the JFK Movie "Back and to the right" scene is an alltime great.

Was that the "Magic Loogie" episode with Keith Hernandez?  ??? ;D

Tom Huckaby

Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #72 on: September 10, 2008, 05:45:31 PM »
Dying laughing....

I am honored to be in the tag line.  I was hoping you'd see that post.

But man your post here is all the evidence one ever needs that ye are indeed shivasahab.


Mike Golden

Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #73 on: September 10, 2008, 05:56:02 PM »
One thing I have figured out about internet discussion boards is that you can never convince anyone of anything ... .

Mike, you will never convince me of that.  ;)

Dave, of that there is no doubt.  I'm sure that by the year 2015 the 'cheater line' thread will have over 1,000 pages-I wonder what the Over/Under is on that ;D

john_stiles

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!
« Reply #74 on: September 10, 2008, 06:19:44 PM »
Stone is clearly a "10" on the Doak scale as a propagandist. Moriarity and MacWood maybe get a "6".

As Seinfeld fans, Dylan and Dad were laughing hysterically at "Newman" during the JFK Movie clips on the History Channel show. The parody on Seinfeld of the JFK Movie "Back and to the right" scene is an alltime great.

Agree with Sweeney & McBride,    the Seinfeld episode was hilarious in it's parody of JFK/Oliver Stone movie with the 'magic loogie.'   They just replaced 'bullet' with 'loogie.'  With Newman in the JFK/Sone movie and also the Seinfeld episode,   it was priceless.

I guess  'Newman'  might next work for Stone about the time that Moriarty/MacWood embrace with TEPaul/WMorrison.