The Biarritz continued

[Ally Mcintosh]

I would have had a hogsback feature as very much a flat top sitting upon a peak or ridge...

...The hole that plays along the ridge at Rye... How is that fairway shaped?... Is it flat with fall offs on both sides?... I suspect it must be to hold the ball... pretty much the same way a section along the centerline of the first Biarritz plateau would look.... Plus, have you ever looked at an actual hog's back? Broad and flat.

Then again, if the 5th at NGLA depicts a sharp ridge, is named hogsback and is a CBM hole, then that's pretty conclusive - have you a photo?

[Ally Mcintosh]

OK Toms....

....Having done some research on the geological meaning of hogback, my interpretation is indeed off the mark...

Which makes me wonder what CBM's description from that 1907 article actually meant: "making sharp hog back in the middle of the course"... What do you think? It's quite vague.

I'm still of the plateau / swale / plateau belief... Do you think something could have been lost in translation?...

Cornish has quite a lot about 'hogback' holes in his 'Classic Golf Hole Design' book, I notice

[Jim Nugent]

David Stamm and others:

I couldn't agree with you more that CBM must have taken the idea for his huge Biarritz swales from #16 North Berwick. I can't imagine he wasn't familiar with it when he began doing that concept over here.

Why did he name the hole "Biarritz" in this case? 

Maybe because North Berwick was commonly known as "The Biarritz of the North" at the turn of the last century?

Good answer, Rich.  Sounds real likely.  Next question:  why was N. Berwick commonly known as "The Biarritz of the North?"

[Bradley Anderson]

This whole thing about the hogback mound is mystifying.

What makes the Biarritz so fun is watching a low draw land on the front right half and disappear in the swale for a moment before it emerges and rolls towards the hole. But correct me if I am wrong here, wouldn't the hogback mound obscure that whole wonderful performance of the ball?

Last night I looked at a drawing of Lido and does anyone know if the hole that borders the ocean is a Biarritz? If it is, it sure looks like it was intended to be built with this hogback.

And that's another thing that comes to mind when we consider the Mac/Raynor greens. They put on such a great show after the ball lands on them. So many of their greens surfaces carry the ball for several moments after the ball lands on them. And it's some of the best entertainment you'll experience playing golf.

[Ally Mcintosh]

This whole thing about the hogback mound is mystifying.

What makes the Biarritz so fun is watching a low draw land on the front right half and disappear in the swale for a moment before it emerges and rolls towards the hole. But correct me if I am wrong here, wouldn't the hogback mound obscure that whole wonderful performance of the ball?

Last night I looked at a drawing of Lido and does anyone know if the hole that borders the ocean is a Biarritz? If it is, it sure looks like it was intended to be built with this hogback.

And that's another thing that comes to mind when we consider the Mac/Raynor greens. They put on such a great show after the ball lands on them. So many of their greens surfaces carry the ball for several moments after the ball lands on them. And it's some of the best entertainment you'll experience playing golf.

Bradley, Cornish has the 8th hole at The Lido as being the best example of a Biarritz...

Here's a link to his book:

http://books.google.ie/books?id=jq4hmzS4oIcC&pg=PA209&lpg=PA209&dq=classic+golf+hole+design+biarittz&source=web&ots=4WSLtN3TxK&sig=tIqk4axI2TXYMOgHzB6ojKF46A4&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA209,M1

Looking at that diagram, maybe the hogback referred to is just a short sharp carry before the plateau / swale / plateau portion... In otherwords, the hogback takes the place of the Chasm or the fronting bunker as the forced carry....

[Thomas MacWood]

OK Toms....

....Having done some research on the geological meaning of hogback, my interpretation is indeed off the mark...

Which makes me wonder what CBM's description from that 1907 article actually meant: "making sharp hog back in the middle of the course"... What do you think? It's quite vague.

I'm still of the plateau / swale / plateau belief... Do you think something could have been lost in translation?...

Cornish has quite a lot about 'hogback' holes in his 'Classic Golf Hole Design' book, I notice

It seems to me the only reasonable explanation is the first plateau being Macdonald's hog back thirty yards from the green. The term 'the course' corresponds to our modern fairway, so its likely the hog back was never meant to be green space. Macdonald mentions nothing about swale or a fronting bunker. Learning more about original 12th at Biarritz would likely solve this mystery.

[TEPaul]

It seems to me the only reasonable explanation is the first plateau being Macdonald's hog back thirty yards from the green. The term 'the course' corresponds to our modern fairway, so its likely the hog back was never meant to be green space. Macdonald mentions nothing about swale or a fronting bunker. Learning more about original 12th at Biarritz would likely solve this mystery."


Mr. MacWood:

Interesting speculation.

[Sean_A]

David Stamm and others:

I couldn't agree with you more that CBM must have taken the idea for his huge Biarritz swales from #16 North Berwick. I can't imagine he wasn't familiar with it when he began doing that concept over here.

Why did he name the hole "Biarritz" in this case? 

Maybe because North Berwick was commonly known as "The Biarritz of the North" at the turn of the last century?

Good answer, Rich.  Sounds real likely.  Next question:  why was N. Berwick commonly known as "The Biarritz of the North?"

Because, like Biarritz and during the same period, loads of wealthy and well connected people used to visit the town for its outdoor activities and socializing. 

I am still trying to find original sources for "Biarritz of the North" with no luck. 

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Jim, Sean, et. al.

The following is about as close as you are going to get regarding the origin of the "Biarritz of the North" slogan.

http://www.north-berwick.co.uk/history_biarritz.asp

I'm sure the slogan was just the brainchild of some early PR guy, trying to lure in the visitors to the town.  The little part of the north bank of the Firth of Forth in which I live bill's itself as "Fife's Riviera."  Trust me, these things are just harmless conceits.

That being said, from the debates we have had on this "Biarritz" issue over the years, I think that the templates which have been made are more evocative of the green at the 16th at NB than the "Chasm" hole in France.  Maybe CB was subliminally affected by the advertising slogan or maybe even the 16th at NB was influenced by the "Chasm" green?  The 16th was radically altered in the late 19th century from a single plateau surrounded by wetlands to the double plateau ("Biarritz" we know today.

Rich

[Patrick_Mucci]

TE
I believe the hogs back is the first plateau, which is sometimes a part of the green and sometimes not. In the case of Piping Rock it is green surface.

Tom MacWood,

I agree.
When looking at the profile of the green and surrounds it's easy to see where the "hog back" term comes from.

If you look at the "hog back" holes of CBM-SR-CB you see a different feature which is incorporated into the contouring of the putting surface.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I would have had a hogsback feature as very much a flat top sitting upon a peak or ridge...

...The hole that plays along the ridge at Rye... How is that fairway shaped?... Is it flat with fall offs on both sides?... I suspect it must be to hold the ball... pretty much the same way a section along the centerline of the first Biarritz plateau would look.... Plus, have you ever looked at an actual hog's back? Broad and flat.

Then again, if the 5th at NGLA depicts a sharp ridge, is named hogsback and is a CBM hole, then that's pretty conclusive - have you a photo?

CBM employed a great variety of spines or hog backs in his work.
Many holes at NLGA are replete with them, # 5 amongst them.

The names of the holes are sometimes taken from the fairway features and other times from putting surface features.  # 5 at NGLA is named for the fairway feature, NOT the putting surface features.

Don't be too quick to make a generalized statement based on one hole, the 5th at NGLA.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I would have had a hogsback feature as very much a flat top sitting upon a peak or ridge...

...The hole that plays along the ridge at Rye... How is that fairway shaped?... Is it flat with fall offs on both sides?... I suspect it must be to hold the ball... pretty much the same way a section along the centerline of the first Biarritz plateau would look.... Plus, have you ever looked at an actual hog's back? Broad and flat.

Then again, if the 5th at NGLA depicts a sharp ridge, is named hogsback and is a CBM hole, then that's pretty conclusive - have you a photo?

CBM employed a great variety of spines or hog backs in his work.
Many holes at NLGA are replete with them, # 5 amongst them.

The names of the holes are sometimes taken from the fairway features and other times from putting surface features.  # 5 at NGLA is named for the fairway feature, NOT the putting surface features.

Don't be too quick to make a generalized statement based on one hole, the 5th at NGLA.

Interesting Pat...

Don't worry - I won't be too quick... In fact, my whole interest in this is finding out if we are wrongly interpreting what CBM means by a hogsback with regards to The Biarritz hole... And if in fact it could meant the first plateau short of the swale...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ally,

You're making the assumption that CBM had but one, universal definition of a "hog back" that was applicable to all architectural situations.

I don't agree with that premise.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally,

You're making the assumption that CBM had but one, universal definition of a "hog back" that was applicable to all architectural situations.

I don't agree with that premise.

I'm not Pat. In fact, exactly the opposite.

I'm trying to find out what he meant by a hogback with regards to The Biarritz. The fact that he had different definitions of it would only help my theory that it is nothing more than the first plateau.

[Kirk Stewart]

I'm slightly confused here. Since Chicago is generally regarded as the oldest 18 hole club in the US, wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that their Biarritz is the first ? Or was this hole in it's current form redesigned by Raynor in the early 20's or later ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm slightly confused here. Since Chicago is generally regarded as the oldest 18 hole club in the US, wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that their Biarritz is the first ? Or was this hole in it's current form redesigned by Raynor in the early 20's or later ?

Kirk,

You're not slightly confused.

You're overwhelmingly confused.

There were TWO Chicago Golf clubs, each with different dates of creation, unique beginnings and unique courses.

NOW, you should only be slightly confused.

[George_Bahto]

Kirk - there was no Biarritz on the first Chicago course (1895)

[George_Bahto]

I think CB was taking about the “fairway” preceding the swale (green beyond) referring to “hog-back.”

If you consider the strip bunkering one each side of the this “fairway” section and the associated drop-off into the bunkering (on each side) you may have his “hog’s-back.”

Also, in many cases, clubs removed two major spines/ribs that ran on the diagonal that were in the front section. These were meant to deflect balls into the side bunkering.

Here is a green blueprint for the Biarritz green on the Westhampton Oneck course (NLE) which shows the spines I’m referring to. On The Knoll’s 13 we still have these spines preceding the swale.

(print removed - gb)

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

I find it interesting that so many clubs removed features, probably in the name of fairness, that would penalize poorly planned or poorly executed shots.

They were wonderful features which tested the golfers IQ and ability to execute.

Sadly, the architectural standards have been lowered for both.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Brilliant! Thanks George... That blueprint answers my question and shows that I was wrong.

Patrick, you obviously think that a Biarritz is a better hole with those deflection spines before the swale.... (as opposed to the common flat plateau we now see on many of these holes)... I'm not so sure.... I suppose it depends how severe those spines were and whether there was still the ooprtunity to land short and run up over the hogback and through the swale...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brilliant! Thanks George... That blueprint answers my question and shows that I was wrong.

Patrick, you obviously think that a Biarritz is a better hole with those deflection spines before the swale.... (as opposed to the common flat plateau we now see on many of these holes)...


I DIDN'T state that.

I'm not so sure....
I suppose it depends how severe those spines were and whether there was still the ooprtunity to land short and run up over the hogback and through the swale...

On that particular hole it appears that the putting surface in only on the back tier.

When I began playing a good Biarritz, frequently, in the 50's, one George Bahto calls home, depending upon conditions, you would learn to play it by carrying the ball to the back tier or trying to hit the downslope at the back of the front tier.

Rarely would we try a running shot through the first tier.

Now, a lot depends upon the elevation of the tee to the elevation of the tiers.

But, at Oneck which is a very flat piece of property, I can see why deflection spines would be employed.

I have to run, but will continue later.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Interesting Patrick... Having never struck a ball on a true Biarritz hole, I can only guess what the strategies should be... I would always have thought the play on a 220 yard par-3 in the early twentieth century would be to land it short of the swale... Maybe not...

[Bradley Anderson]

Now the question is, what version of the Biarritz hole would MacDonald have wished to preserve?

Apparently he was enamored with the hole becausehe did not use it at NGLA. Maybe his original version at Piping Rock was too severe andhe did not object to having it softened? Maybe after the hogback and/or spines were removed it turned out to be a better hole than he originally imagined?

This opens up a lot of interesting speculation.

It would seem that Raynor liked the Chicago Golf version.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Interesting Patrick... Having never struck a ball on a true Biarritz hole, I can only guess what the strategies should be...

I would always have thought the play on a 220 yard par-3 in the early twentieth century would be to land it short of the swale... Maybe not...

I think the method of play is heavily influenced by the differentiation of the elevations between tee and green.

The Biarritz's at The Creek and Mountain Lake have almost none.

Yale is quite pronounced and I think Piping Rock is slighly elevated.

Remember too, that absent irrigation the holes played differently as the seasons changed.

In the spring they must have been a bear, unless the tees were moved up.
In the arid summer and fall plenty of run was available.

The advent of irrigation, especially automated irrigation dramatically altered their play.

Without irrigation running the ball from the first tier, though the trough, up onto the second tier was a heroic shot.  That's a lot of run.

Think about the function of the deflecting spines in the context of the play of the hole on an unirrigated course.

The carry on the tee shot required was probably in the 160-180 range.

If I were the architect in an era where wimps weren't tolerated and golfers embraced the penal nature of the game, I'd allow for run up shots to a long hole provided that accuracy was part of the examination on that hole.

Biarritz's tend to have large greens.
Not rewarding an inaccurate shot which was specifically executed to carry 160-180 yards seems like common sense, hence, the introduction of deflecting mounds, which might and might not deflect balls, depending upon their bounce.

Of all the par 3's that have withstood time, I think the Eden, Redan, Biarritz and short have more than held their own.  They remain more than adequate tests TODAY.

However, maintainance practices have altered the play of the Biarritz the most.

[George_Bahto]

Ally - in today's world those front spines are not a factor ......   I've played the Knoll's 13th hundreds of times and never had had any my ball anywhere near those front-section spines.

Having said that however, the spines and the horseshoe feature on the putting surface are great fun to play over ..... putts breaking 2 - 3 and even 4 times. The green also has a significant back to front tilt (putting that mildly, by the way)

The Knoll's Biarritz is probably the best preserved version ......... (the course not taken care of well for many years and for those many years top dressing??    nada!!

I do not think the PR front section had those spines and I also do not think the PR Biarritz needed to be softened and doubt if it ever was any different that it is today - a very difficult par-3.