[Matt_Ward]

I will post more on this in time but quickly have to say that in my recent travels the visits to Tetherow and Rock Creek produced something of a special sort for me.

The 16th holes at both courses are truly world class.

#16 at Tetherow plays 476 yards and requires a combination of high art shotmaking - both at the tee, approach and green. Kidd created a sligth dog-leg right which features a devilishly placed bunker can be played around or over -- the carry from the tips is roughly 300+ yards. Should you play safe to the left of it the approach is a long one with the green set below the top shelf of the fairway. The distance from that point is 200+ yards.

Should you clear the bunker -- there is a fairway dropoff and balls can run out quite a bit. My tee shot flew the bunker and ran out to roughly 120 yards away. he key is that there is more room to the right of the bunker but the appearance from the tee is counter to that. Pulled too far to the left and you can be easily hurt by the falloff as much as be helped.

The green is slightly elevated above the fairway and runs on a slight diagonal from lower left to back right. You CANNOT pull the shot even one inch because it drops off as fast as the Grand Canyon. Those who hit too deep can also face a similar situation. Fortunately, for me, the pin when I played it was in the rear and I could access it quite easily with a PW approach. If the pin is cut tight to the left front it takes a herculean shot of distance control and trajectory to land and hold that spot.

I've played a few Kidd layouts but the 16th at Tetherow is supreme in so many ways.

The 16th at Rock Creek -- Tom Doak's layout in Deer Lodge, MT offers the same type of situation for a hole positioned in that part of the round. The 16th features a complete change in the manner of its overall appearance as you climb to the tee from the preceding hole. The hole gives the stately appearance of ponderosa pines that frame the backdrop with distance mountain far in the rear. The hole looks like something out of a surreal painting. The player is confront with bunkers down the left side and one very well thought out one that guards the right side -- more towards the right center.

The tee shot must be hit with a healthy combo of distance and accuracy. Once you get in the fairway the real work really intensifies -- the green is set high above the fairway and is somewhat domed. Shots not struck with supreme precision can scamper off in any number of directions. Go too far on the shot and there is big time dropoff in the rear. The putting surface is well crafted to provide a slew of different pin locations.

I've played my share of Doak layouts but the 16th at Rock Creek is clearly on the very short list of top tier holes I have played from his design hands. There is awesome beauty, naturalness in which the hole fits the property so well without overemphasizing itself and most of all the need for first rate shtomaking -- nothing but your finest will suffice on these two dynamite holes from Kidd and Doak respectively and they are well placed in one's rounds at each of the respective layouts.

[Michael Dugger]

Hmm, everyone I know thinks 16 at Teth. needs help.

But apparently not when you hit it as far as Matt Ward.....

[Michael Dugger]

I'm wondering, Matt, do you just copy and paste what you write here into your Jersey Golfer magazine?

[Michael Dugger]

I will post more on this in time but quickly have to say that in my recent travels the visits to Tetherow and Rock Creek produced something of a special sort for me.

The 16th holes at both courses are truly world class.

#16 at Tetherow plays 476 yards and requires a combination of high art shotmaking - both at the tee, approach and green. Kidd created a sligth dog-leg right which features a devilishly placed bunker can be played around or over -- the carry from the tips is roughly 300+ yards. Should you play safe to the left of it the approach is a long one with the green set below the top shelf of the fairway. The distance from that point is 200+ yards.

Should you clear the bunker -- there is a fairway dropoff and balls can run out quite a bit. My tee shot flew the bunker and ran out to roughly 120 yards away. he key is that there is more room to the right of the bunker but the appearance from the tee is counter to that. Pulled too far to the left and you can be easily hurt by the falloff as much as be helped.

The green is slightly elevated above the fairway and runs on a slight diagonal from lower left to back right. You CANNOT pull the shot even one inch because it drops off as fast as the Grand Canyon. Those who hit too deep can also face a similar situation. Fortunately, for me, the pin when I played it was in the rear and I could access it quite easily with a PW approach. If the pin is cut tight to the left front it takes a herculean shot of distance control and trajectory to land and hold that spot.

I've played a few Kidd layouts but the 16th at Tetherow is supreme in so many ways.

So in other words, "I liked 16 at Tetherow because I cleared a 300 yard bunker and got 120 yards of roll-out on a 475 yard hole and had a flip-wedge in, so even though the hole is at altitute and 300 really isn't 300, it gives me a huge advantage over the guy who can't and has to hit a hybrid or whatever"? 

Pretty much my thoughts, Shivas!

When I played the forecaddy absolutely considered this one of the holes where you hit three wood.

But a three wood still left a blind approach!!!

Even the guys in the pro shop said they may have to massage that hole in the future.....

[Pete_Pittock]

Michael,
   I would not use the word everyone. I liked the hole, but think that a saving bunker behind the green and substantially down the slope would be helpful. Matt pointed out there is a cheater line to be played right of the fairway bunker that I missed or overlooked.
   It is a very difficult hole which requires two precise shots at an important time in the round. That is how I took Matt's post.
   For your information it is not a three wood tee shot for all players. Matt Ward hit driver over the bunkers. I hit a good driver shot of the bunkers from the white tees. I took the opportunity to foreward view the hole and saw that my three wood approach would pick up a favorable bounce and maybe go over and dropped back to hit a five wood to the fringe. Too bad I yipped my first putt.
  I'm in Matt's corner on this one.
 

[Matt_Ward]

Shivas, Michael D:

Stop with the crying please.

The 16th at Tetherow provides for a wide variety of options. I didn't like the hole because of what happened to me on a one time visit. The dimensions and options of the hole are quite varied and allow for different types of plays -- both from those who don't wish to challenge the center-placed bunker to those who wish to do so. Simply flying the bunker doesn't guarantee you anything unless the line you choose to do so is well executed. And, frankly, for all you folks who can't bunt past the pitcher's mound there's nothing wrong with the big hitter getting an advanatage that has been well earned.

I also played a shot from the top of the fairway and from there you do get a clear look at the green as opposed to where my drive finished at the 120 yard plate. The player has to decide which shot he has in his bag consistently - the options for different plays are there.

Pete:

Would you consider hitting driver on the hole. And if so, from what tee boxes for your game?

Last item -- how much did your approach shot run?

Thanks ...

[Jeff_Stettner]

I, like Matt, cleared the bunker and ended up with a sand wedge approach. It is still not a good hole. I will follow up with a "Contrarian View of Tetherow" down the road.

[Pete_Pittock]

Matt,
I played it from the 424 tees, which gave me about 235 to the bunker which is pretty much my limit (I'm usually a low ball hitter so I don't get extra yardage at altitude). Roll out on the approach was probably 40+ because I hit a stinger-like shot.

[Allan Long]

While there is no doubting that #16 at Tetherow is a strong hole, I absolutely think the bunker in the middle of the fairway is way too much and really effects my opinion of the hole. (And this is not sour grapes from someone who made multiple X's on the hole--I made 2 pars and a bogey.) I played the hole from both the Kidd and the black tees, and I am not so sure I would agree that there are a wide variety of options.

The landing area right of the bunker is no bargain. Not only is that area small (with the native rough on the right and the bunker and tall fescue in the middle), but you've got no view of the green and you have the big tree to work the ball around. If you can't fly it 300 over the bunker (and really, for how many is that an option), the only option you've got is to hit something short of the bunker--or try to squeeze it left of the bunker--and that's no bargain.

After playing the hole twice, the Pro we talked to mentioned he hit 4-iron off the tee during a tournament round so we gave that a shot. After hitting driver, 3-wood and 4-iron, I would just as soon hit 4-iron and take my chances from there.

I think the hole has some real potential. But to me, as it plays now, it's not as good a hole as it could be.

[Matt_Ward]

Adam L:

Couple of small corrections -- people should only play the Kidd tees with a certain handicap in mind. It's a fair carry for those who can really handle what such tees entail.

A proportionate carry, within the means of other players, can be attempted from the other marks.

Nothing wrong with that in my mind.

Couple of other points -- the right side is a psych job to fool the player. No doubt there is high grass in the area but if cleared the slope of the fairway will guide the ball to an appropriate landing site for the approach play.

Adam, frankly I think the hole spooked you. You opted to take everything out of play with a 4-iron tee ball. So be it. Then you will be forced to play a far longer and riskier shot with your second. Those who decide to get closer to the hole via the tee shot route will certainly have challenges but if succcessfully negotiated the second shot situation becomes one far less complicated and demanding. I don't see anything wrong when players opt for the most conservative track to the hole and then are left with more demanding second shot options. You see, from my point of view, YOU made that decision yourself. The hole didn't shut you out -- you shut yourself out with the game plan you went with.

Here's the other point you missed -- one doesn't have to simply hit the ball OVER the bunker but there's sufficient room for a skilled player to play a fade around the blockage and for the ball to room over the hill.

Is it tough?

No doubt.

But shotmaking of a high sort is never easy and quality archtecture makes that so.

Shivas:

Try this for starters ... "So in other words, "I liked 16 at Tetherow because I cleared a 300 yard bunker and got 120 yards of roll-out on a 475 yard hole and had a flip-wedge in, so even though the hole is at altitute and 300 really isn't 300, it gives me a huge advantage over the guy who can't and has to hit a hybrid or whatever"?"

Hey Shiv -- guess what break out the crying towel.

I simply outlined the nature of the hole and the VARIETY of ways it can be played by different players. There's enough elasticity with the hole to allow for players to use different strategies to their advantage and score well through any usage of them.

I like the idea that if a strong drive is played with the proper positioning over the center-placed bunker then a reward of some sort is given.

Here's what you missed -- allow me to explain further.

Even IF a guy can carry the bunker it's likely he will exchange less distance for the second shot but will be partially or totally blocked from seeing the putting surface with the second shot. On the flip side ...

Those who opt to lay back will give up a shorter distance but then will be able to see the entire green surface. From the center point of the bunker immediately behind it is 192 yards. Those who opt to go over the bunker had better not pull the shot even the slightest -- there's plenty of junk down the left side.

Shivas, power is part and parcel of the game. Get over it. So is accuracy. The continual whining and moaning of those who can't the ball a certain distance is really about a narrow me-ism that reflects a condescending attitude to those who choose the risky play and then have a proper reward to go with it when executed to perfection.

Let the tears keep on rolling -- my ducks back will gladly shake them off.

[Allan Long]

Matt,

I never said the Kidd tees were for everyone. I played them because I felt comfortable playing them, and I can handle them. Even so, I would find it curious if most who teed it up back there can carry it 300 yards.

Even from the black tees, it's still a carry of 275 to get over the bunker, and most who play up there probably can't CARRY it 275-altitude or not.

No hole has ever spooked me, Matt. I frankly think that the landing area just doesn't give the player that many options. It was from the blacks that I hit four iron and had only 7 iron in. I hit four iron to test a theory. And for me, it proved a point that driver is just not the club there. Yes, I made the decision to take driver out of the equasion, but the hole dictated it. In my mind, there is more risk hitting driver than not, and since I am the one putting the score down on the card, I am comfortable with that decision, and stand by thoughts.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

-Allan ( not Adam)

[Matt_Ward]

Allan:

Mea culpa on my inserting your first name incorrectly.

Couple of quick comments ...

The Kidd tees does provide ways to circumvent the aforementioned bunker without going over it directly. You can work the ball to the far side -- more likely the left and then get the benefit of what Kidd provided for the hole.
The reality is that the intensity of such shots is not a hit and miss proposition and for most players should be handled from the more forward tee areas in order to place such a situation in a more reasonable manner.

Allan, let's keep this in mind -- you still can't refute the fact that you MADE the decision to clubdown. When people clubdown to avoid an obstacle and then lay claim that such holes are unfair -- I think that's a big time stretch don't you think. When you lay back -- you have made the implicit admission that you wish to avoid something -- as a consequence of your decision you then face a more daunting task to get to the green and make par. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Your own words confirm that. No doubt there are holes where hitting driver really needs to be analyzed based on a host of factors. However, what you didn't mention Allan is that the bunker does provide alternate routes -- both over and to the side.

When you say the hole "dictated" that driver be taken out of your hands -- I say that's not the case from the analysis I provided. You just believe you were dictated to when making your tee play on #16 and reacted in the manner you did.

You are free to pull any club out of your bag and play the hole in the manner that best fits your game. I have no issue with that and never implied or stated that. What I did take issue with is the conclusion you have reached that the hole is so limited in its overall elasticity for a wider variety of plays than you believe are possible.

But I'll repeat what I said previously ... shotmaking of a high sort is never easy and quality archtecture makes that so. No doubt we shall agree to disagree but I can only hope my further comments have shed a bit more light to add to your thinkings and feelings of the hole.


Shivas:

You belittled the aspect of power in golf. The crying and whining tac is something I thought you, of all people, would be above. Sorry for my clear error.

C'mon, let's be a bit more forthcoming. Re-read what you posted and how you came to such a erroneous conclusion from my initial comments I made.

Shivas, if you don't like what I write or how I write -- simple solution -- don't read it. I mentioned the variety of ways the hole can play and I simply mentioned that when a certain angle of attack is taken the hole will provide a certain consequence. I reached that conclusion from playing the hole in different manners. If you think my comments are puffing out my chest -- that's far from the case. I have taken my punch to the gut numerous times when playing challenging courses and shot requirements and have stated such things in any number of ways.

There was ample detail in what I wrote - it is you my friend who went with the flippant "Ward is at it again" response.

If you read what I wrote I left a clear and detailed analysis of what the approach play is like on the hole and what consequences -- good and bad -- were in play at the hole in question. I don't devalue shots of any type and I have elevated the aspect of design that won't surrender easily to only the bomb'n gouge type play. That's a good bit more than your narrow interpretation of what you claim I only focus upon.

I've included numerous ways by which all types of shots have fooled me or how I originally looked at a hole only to have my mind changed by a future play or by someone else making a better argument than the one I presented. It's there for those who want to see it and read it.

[Matt_Ward]

Plenty of people clearly have thoughts on the 16th at Tetherow and I can appreciate that while also disagreeing with those who see the hole as contrived or unfair.

However ...

The 16th at Rock Creek is quite special. What amazes me is when I walked off the green at the 15th and had to turn a short corner that blocked all views of the 16th until you fully ascended the tee box and gaze out on this incredible hole.

The scene is more akin to the Flagstaff, AZ area with high flanking ponderosa pines that frame the outer boundaries of the hole. The background is simply an eyeful -- pulling the club back to hit the tee shot can be a real distraction. A glorious one indeed.

The fairway is protected by a large bunker to the left and there is another smaller one that cuts in from right center. You can lay behind where these bunkers jut in but that leaves a very long and demanding approach.

If you can hit driver and get to a position that is just opposite the right center bunker you're left with an uphill approach -- likely adds a club to a club and a half more than the stated yardage.

The green is set like a mini dome -- there are various falloff areas - the most pronounced is in the rear. At NO TIME can any shot be hit long here. The rear falloff is quite steep and it's a sure fire bogey at best from that position.

The 16th is one of the strongest holes at Rock Creek -- I see it as the most challenging from start to finish. There are no turbo boosts or other player-friendly elements included here. In simple terms there is just a three word phrase that I would use here ...

"you earn it"

[Ron Farris]

Someone teach Matt how to take pictures and post them.
I love his comments but I am a visual learner:


I shot this last year so it may have changed by now.
Good Work Mr. Doak

[Matt_Ward]

Ron:

The pics are coming !

The hole is essentially as you pictured it.

Just a superb setting and the need for what you must do is all out in front of you from the moment you arrive at the green all the way to the green.

Could be one of the finest Doak greens I've ever encountered and one of his strongest par-4 holes I also have ever played.

[Craig Sweet]

Matt...as good as the tee shot and the approach might be...this green is one of the finest I have ever seen.....it truly make this hole exceptional.

[Matt_Ward]

Craig:

No doubt about that. I found the hole to be at the world class level of holes I have ever played. Hats off to Doak for including such a touch-as-nails hole in the overall mixture. #16 requires the total product in terms of pure shotmaking -- there are no shortcuts and only those who really can produce first rate play will see any type of reward.

The green, as you correctly surmised, is a classic by which there are several really good placements. The aspect that makes #16 so special is how the player comes upon it when leaving the preceding hole. It illuminate a completely different look than so many holes other holes at Rock Creek. I've found in the past that a few of the Doak layouts I have played have really busted their hump to be a pure "look" hole but then fall down a few steps on the "play" meter. #16 at Rock Creek marries them in such a glorious manner.

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