[Tony_Muldoon]

Prince’s

This was the first links developed to cope with the challenge of the Haskell Ball and I’ll update and revise its history on another occasion. The high point of a once most fashionable course was The Open won by Sarazen in 1932.  The land was taken over by the military in WW2 and the new course is three loops of 9 by Morrison and Campbell, reopening in April 1954.  Its reputation suffers because it stands adjacent to RSG and RCP. I firmly believe the golfing establishment will gladly travel to Kent for a game on one of the above two Clubs but doesn’t for a round on this course which had the VIRTUE of being accessible to all.  It’s often dismissed as being flat but you need to appreciate that this was deliberate. The pre war course famously played across the Dunes with many blind holes. These were particularly disliked by the new Owner, Sir Ainsley Bridgland and he instructed his Architects not to have any. The course is routed between ridges of small sand dunes with all the hazards visible from the tee. The course is lighter in bunkering than many link’s courses, I count 17 greens as having no bunkers close to them.  However in the English Amateur & Open qualifiers, it proved to be a similarly difficult scoring test to RSG.  

As you drive onto the course you can see the original clubhouse. The course was to be 18 holes of championship golf ‘The Blue’ (starting at the 6th of the Shore and continuing through the ‘Himalayas’ before returning) and 9 holes of similar quantity “the Blue” (now the ‘Dunes’) However it was always hoped to move the clubhouse to the centre of the property and rename the nine holes and this was done in 1985. It’s this version pictured here with a few nods back to the old course in these photos.



For the centenary in 2006 the club published a neat little history with these maps showing the new course overlaid onto the old one.  Fourteen of the old greens we reused - often from a new direction.






Himalayas.

According to the new Scoresaver this is the members favourite 9.  With a few trees and more doglegs it feels a little different.

1st  385 dogleg right.  Doglegs on links courses can be difficult.  Without a tree to turn around and with a big sky, what Pat Ruddy  calls ‘the hungry eye’ leads many into trouble down the right. Aim for the towers there’s lots of room out to the left.  With the wind behind the ideal shot will run the ball onto the sloping green.





2 Dogleg R/L  415 yards to a beautiful plateau green.  Again take care if cutting the inside of the dogleg there’s a ditch behind and to the left of the bunker...




3  194 yards playing downwind


4 turn around. 352 yards to a double green. Two bunkers well short and a 50 yard deep green make it hard to judge your approach.


5th 402 yards a classic straight Princes hole.  With a drive flirting with fairway bunker on right you can more easily avoid bunker by green.



6th 580 yards into the wind. 10 beautiful pot bunkers. Best par 5 on the course?



7th tee best place to turn back and take in Pegwell Bay.


Best par 3 on the course? No bunkers just 196 yards into the wind with the green raised up and falling R/L to repel all but the best.  I love links golf.


8 Downwind 425 yards and for a change centreline bunkers to a green shared with 4th.




9  From a tee shot high on a Dune you play back to the clubhouse.


To be continued.

[Mark Pearce]

Played there many years ago and my memory is a little foggy but I do know I really enjoyed Prince's.  I'm looking forward to returning next September.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Dunes.

The work was split between Morrison and Campbell  but I can’t be sure which is which or why Sir Ainsley dished out the job like this.
 I’m not sure why but I think Morrison did 14 holes and most of them on this 9.


 1  471yards.  Dogleg over/around that bunker to a beautiful hogsback green. Scoresaver suggests most difficult hole on course. With a five way playoff for the last St Georges open only only 2 found the green. Woosnam got through by chipping in for birdie!


 

2nd 172 yards to a raised green.


 



3rd 555 yards straight into the wind, with a ditch and OOB to the right.  But ust look at those rumples!



I used to think these were old bunkers form the prewar course, but there's a lot of them and not where the old course was.
Shell holes from the military?


4th 430 yards with a centre line bunker for the drive – I’ll come back to this one.



5th 425 yards still into the wind.  Lovely hole.  Rumpled fairway splits; go too far right and you can't see the lovely green, go left and you risk...






6 512 yards downwind, with some ‘narsty’ centre line bunkering. There’s this bund to divert the long running ball but the photo doesn’t reflect the banking to the right that feeds a ball into centre of green.  For fun I always aim there.



7 374 yards.  


New Bunker?


8th  217 yards


 

9th “Typical” strong Princes hole, 430 yards.  With low Dunes either side, two strong straight biffs will see you home.  I seem to recall many putts failing to drop on this hole.

[Michael Whitaker]

Tony - Thank you for posting these... I enjoy vicariously experiencing the courses you have played through your photos and commentary. You and Sean are both great at this! Keep it up!!!

[Sean_A]

Tony

Its an odd fact that I don't care for the Himalayas, but I love the Dunes & Shore.  Perhaps people can see what I meant when I said Nuzzo's course reminds me a ton of Princes.  Its a very different look to many courses because the course is so low lying, yet there is tons of interest and mainly because the archies let the land speak for itself.  The back stretch of 4-6 is really cool because its farthest from the sea, but is still a great stretch of holes.  I most certainly have a lot of time for Princes.  Keep the pix coming.  On the Shore there are a few holes which into stiff winter breeze just reaching the fairway is an accomplishment!

Cheers Tony!

Ciao 

[Peter Pallotta]

Tony - like Michael said, and my thanks.

Sean - Yup, I see the similarity - and with some of the courses you play. That letting "the land speak for itself" seems easier said than done, not craft-wise but attitude wise.

It's as if courses like Princes come from a time when people (like Darwin) described golf courses in words and not pictures. Maybe the land speaks better for itself that way, ironically...

Peter   

[Mark Chaplin]

Tony - You maynot be aware but Sir Ainsley Bridgland also owned Royal Cinque Ports until Jack Aisher led a members buyout and purchased the land. Apparently Sir Ainsley was rarely seen at Deal - and never playing the sixth - prefering to play at Princes.

Below is taken from Andy Farrell's tribute to Jack;

When Sir Aynsley died, his widow Kath asked Jack to help dispose of his golfing assets. The members at Prince's did not wish to buy their course but Jack thought it was too good an opportunity for the members of Deal to turn down the chance of buying Royal Cinque Ports. He arranged for the course and clubhouse to be bought for £38,000. When Charles Newman, the Captain, was told the price he protested, "but we haven't got 38,000 pennies!" Jack initially put up an interest free loan of £20,000 and when a debenture scheme was set up to fund the deal, ended up with 80 per cent of the debentures. "We didn't have any money but we were always full of ideas," he said.

The Charles Newman referred to above was club Captain in 1964 and the winner of the Victoria Cross at St. Nazaire in 1942 when he led the commando raiding party during "The Greatest Raid of All". Six VCs were won that day when HMS Cambeltown was rammed into the lock gates.

[Mark Chaplin]

I stand corrected 5 VCs but still the most awarded for one action in WW2

[Andrew Mitchell]

Tony

Thanks for posting these.  I couldn't understand how I missed them first time around but then realised I was away at the time.

Prince's looks interesting, shame we can't get a game there at Buda time.

[Sean_A]

Tony

What ever happened to the Shore 9? 

As you know, I had a hell of a time organizing next year's Torda at Rye, Sandwich and Princess.  In the end, I had to drop Rye and take on Deal as things just weren't working out.  Anyway, through all the sheeeeenanigans, Mr Bill Howie (acchhh, not a Scot?), the manager of Princes, was a real trooper in accommodating my whimsical fancies.  Now, I have just received the Celebration of 100 Years.  Is this guy a star or what?   

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Finally we arrive at the shore.

Nb the pictures are a combination of several visits across the seasons, I have 142 of Princes and none of them named!  Princes doesn’t have many high dunes but for all that there’s enough undulation to make the golf interesting, even if it makes the photography harder.  For some reason I have few of the Shore holes but plenty of duplicates of the others.

I’ve alerted Jamie Barber to this thread and I’d love to get his take on some of his favourite holes there as he’s a member.

First 430 yards into the wind.



2nd  536 par 5 This has two sets of tees and I prefer the right hand as they offer a really hard diagonal shot across some hay to a fairway that’s hard to see. SOOO difficult to pick a line.  Also the right hand side of the fairway is depressed and makes approach shots more difficult.



3rd green?       182 yards and another contender for the best par 3? Plays downwind.



The sad wreck of the old clubhouse.



 4th This has a really cool ridge of hummocks down the left side of the fairway and is flatter to the right. Naturally there’s more room to come in from the left.

JAmie which green is this? It's in the right place on photoshop for it to be the 4th but whats with the long grass? Strance angle?


6th this is one of my very favourite Par 4’s and I haven’t a decent photo.  Comparison with the green of Foxy is apt.To see the green you have to derive down the right where there’s a single bunker.  The green is on a plateau which is a continuation of the ridge to the left of the fairway.  Only the perfectly struck approach will stay on the green everything else will roll off to the right.  I can’t understand why this isn’t one of the great templates in golf. Simple and beautiful golf.

 



7th571 Par 5 with interesting pot bunkers in the fairway and this great green that gathers from the right and falls to the left.







8thAnother long Par 3 with interesting mounding and fall aways.  



9th. Great 430 yard par four to one of the most interesting fairways you’ll meet anywhere, parallel humps!  Awkward shot to an angled target with two small ridges running down it, almost guaranteeing you won’t find a flat lie.



 

Princes deserve a better photo tour than this. Jamie? Sean?
These days I take a sanp of the tee marker every 3rd hole or so, it makes thse tours so much easier.

[Scott Warren]

Tony,

I think that second-last pic is 8 Dunes, not 8 Shore. From memory 8 Shore is also a par three of similar distance, but plays back the other way (away from the clubhouse).

[Sean_A]

Thanks Tony.  I think Stickem' Up is right.  That 2nd to last pic is 8 Dunes. 

You know what?  I really dislike this three 9s stuff.  I wish they had one 9 holer and one 18 holer. 

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

I'm with you Sean.

I saw Dunes/Shore as easily the premier 18 when I played all three in a day, but Jamie was telling me Hims was the members' favourite...

[Bill_McBride]

Thanks Tony.  I think Stickem' Up is right.  That 2nd to last pic is 8 Dunes. 

You know what?  I really dislike this three 9s stuff.  I wish they had one 9 holer and one 18 holer. 

Ciao

We-ko-pa in Albuquerque added a third nine.  Last time I was there they sent us out to play second nine and new third nine.  There was little feeling of continuity and my favorite nine was the first.

So I agree, it's bollocks.

[Jamie Barber]

27 can be a real benefit; it makes getting a tee easy and reduces congestion and great if you fancy a quick 9 holes, but I think Prince's reputation suffers because of it because you don't think of one 18 hole layout.

Actually, the Himalayas being "member's favourite" I think is a myth as posted on the club's website. If it is the favourite, it's only because you can walk in after 2 or 7 if the heaven's open.

Also, although it ranks lower in most people's estimation, Hims does cover some of the original 18 hole routing. The 1st of Hims is pretty much as it always was, but it's possibly my least favourite hole on the course.

For me, Hims is the only 9 where I've broken par, but also the one I screw up the most. Personally I don't like the first few holes on Hims, but 6-9 are great holes in IMHO. The "Championship" course is now Shore/Dunes which is the longest (7275 yds currently although I would think they'll extend this as there is lots of room). Hims/Shore and Dunes/Hims are also >7000 yds.

I'd like to see 18 holes that included 6-9 of Hims with 14 from Shore and Dunes, but the routing doesn't really work.

Regarding Tony's pictures, they are all Prince's holes but out of sequence, and mixing holes on Shore, Dunes and Hims. In the most recent photos:

1. is 1st of Shore

2. no picture but the forward tees (on the right) really make is a long par 4 instead of a par 5. I think this hole needs a new championship tee to make the fairway carry ~280 yds (there is loads of room)

3. 2nd photo is actually 7th of Hims. For me a great bunkerless par3. Contrary to Tony's description, prevailing wind is in-to on this hole. The 3rd photo is the 9th of Hims!

4. The wreck of the old clubhouse - sad to see. Plans afoot for a hotel/guest house but I heard being held up by Sandwich Bay residents.

5. This is the 4th of Dunes. It has a lot of good bunkers, but many in the wrong places. Rafferty rerouted this hole in the last few years to make it more of a dog leg left.

6. Pictures 5-8 are mostly of holes 5-8 on Dunes - but with a random picture of the 3rd and some are out of sequence (pics assigned to wrong holes). Also the yardage's have been muddled up; 7th Dunes is quite short, ~500 yds, the longer one is 7th Shore. The bunker on the 8th is now more than double the size.

7. the 9th here is really the 9 of Shore. A great hole spoiled only by an irrelevant bunker.

I'll try and spend some time to get some photos and put them in order.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Thanks Tony.  I think Stickem' Up is right.  That 2nd to last pic is 8 Dunes. 

You know what?  I really dislike this three 9s stuff.  I wish they had one 9 holer and one 18 holer. 

Ciao

Sean:

Do you think they do this so that each 9 has equal status? Perhaps they don't want one of the 9s becoming a relief nine or a "second class" nine.

For example, who ever plays the 3rd 9 at Portmarnock, unless they are forced to?

Tony:

Nice tour!

Dónal.

[Sean_A]

Jamie

Cheers.  I look forward to your tour.

Donal

I have never really bought the separate but equal argument at any 27 hole facility.  Princes is no different.  I think it is certainly inferior to other 9s and part of that reason is because some of the turf on that side isn't as good as on the main side of the house.  Plus, I do think this setup can hold back a course in the rankings and thus reduce visitor fees. 

I understand Jamie's suggestion that an un-designated 18 holer makes it easier to get more people out, but this isn't necessarily a good thing.  A separate 9 holer can be a great benefit for new players, older folks or just out for an evening stroll etc.  It also has the added benefit of the club not really having to spend as much time on the 9 holer and concentrate more on the 18 holer.  Finally, first appearances mean an awful lot and having to tee off first on the Hims would take a bit effort in getting over. 

I just booked a weekend at Princes next year and I was adamant that we would play the Dunes/Shore and treat the Hims as a secondary game if we feel like going back out after lunch.  When I think of Princes I definitely visualize the Dunes/Shore as the proper course and the Hims as the also-ran.  I think many others do as well. 

Ciao

[Jamie Barber]

Finally, first appearances mean an awful lot and having to tee off first on the Hims would take a bit effort in getting over.

This is also my least favourite, but actually its routing is largely untouched from the original pre-war course, where it was the 7th. I think the original hole did have more bunkers.

[Sean_A]

Finally, first appearances mean an awful lot and having to tee off first on the Hims would take a bit effort in getting over.

This is also my least favourite, but actually its routing is largely untouched from the original pre-war course, where it was the 7th. I think the original hole did have more bunkers.

Jamie

Yes, but being the 7th and 1st is very different!  Plus, the outlook of Hims 2 ain't special.  In the old days it didn't turn left and instead carried straight over the hill -  Himalayas.

Do you think of the three nines as separate but equal?

Ciao

[Jamie Barber]

Agreed. But the club definitely treats them as equal; open competitions are usually Hims/Shores as are some local PGA stuff. The bigger events (Open qualifying, Amateur qualifying, Europro etc) all use Shore/Dunes, but I think that's more about length.

Personally, I don't like the Hims as much (actually I think it's more I don't like 1 and 2 as much). But I do think it calls for you to shape shots more than the others (probably why I screw it up the most).

Personally I'd choose Shore/Dunes if visiting and keep Hims for a stroll afterwards. However, in terms of the test and making a score, I think on average Hims is the equal of the others (in fact, general consensus is that it's easiest to make a score on Shore).

I'd really love to see restoration of the old 8th and 11th (which would be 2nd and 9th) to bring back the two blind shots - but it would need some re-working and construction of a new hole to keep the current 6th and 7th.

If I owned the course, I'd look at the current 9th which would be easier. Ideally to restore the original tee shot you'd need to re-site the current 8th green (the double green); but it's awkward because the obvious candidate (to the right) floods on bad years (the fairway used to run in that valley and was moved for that reason). Instead, I'd move the elevated tee to the left off the dune, so the hole would be a blind drive over the dunes, and then back to the current green. I'd restore the 3 big bunkers too to make the drive.

Prince's doesn't really have a signature or stand out hole, and this would be it IMHO.

[Scott Warren]

Agreed. But the club definitely treats them as equal; open competitions are usually Hims/Shores as are some local PGA stuff. The bigger events (Open qualifying, Amateur qualifying, Europro etc) all use Shore/Dunes, but I think that's more about length.

Personally, I don't like the Hims as much (actually I think it's more I don't like 1 and 2 as much). But I do think it calls for you to shape shots more than the others (probably why I screw it up the most).

Personally I'd choose Shore/Dunes if visiting and keep Hims for a stroll afterwards. However, in terms of the test and making a score, I think on average Hims is the equal of the others (in fact, general consensus is that it's easiest to make a score on Shore).

I'd really love to see restoration of the old 8th and 11th (which would be 2nd and 9th) to bring back the two blind shots - but it would need some re-working and construction of a new hole to keep the current 6th and 7th.

If I owned the course, I'd look at the current 9th which would be easier. Ideally to restore the original tee shot you'd need to re-site the current 8th green (the double green); but it's awkward because the obvious candidate (to the right) floods on bad years (the fairway used to run in that valley and was moved for that reason). Instead, I'd move the elevated tee to the left off the dune, so the hole would be a blind drive over the dunes, and then back to the current green. I'd restore the 3 big bunkers too to make the drive.

Prince's doesn't really have a signature or stand out hole, and this would be it IMHO.

I like those changes!

Re: the club using Hims/Shore for tournies, that seems a crime, I reckon 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 8 on Dunes are all in the best 10 holes on the property!

[Jamie Barber]

Agreed. 4th is also good from the back tees (100 yds back) because your drive lands in the elephant's graveyard (9th photo in Tony's post). Also OOB is all along the right, so if you hit a bit of a slice it's bye-bye ball

[Scott Warren]

How about this for a composite for tournies:

8, 6, 7 Hims

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Dunes

6, 5 Shore

7, 8, 9 Dunes

1, 2, 3, 9 Shore

What's that? Par 72 or 73?

[Jamie Barber]

Actually that's a much better routing, 37 out, 35 back - (assume you'd reverse 6 and 5th of Shore).  A little walking between holes 3-4 but not a major issue. You'd change direction more often making the wind more of an issue

With that, you could also make 9th Dunes play to the current practice green (which was the original green for that hole). It's a much better green and would make a v. tough 4 (playing to about 480 yds).

Pity there's not a way to play 7th Shore instead of 2nd.

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