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Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Slope Rating
« on: June 29, 2002, 03:58:18 PM »
Can someone help me understand a thing or 2 about slope rating, because I dont. Take for instance Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes.

Bandon has a slope rating of 145 from the Black tees (6700 yard tees, par 72- there are another set of "Silver Tees" at 7200 which are never open).

Pacific on the other hand has only a 133 slope rating from the Black tees (6600 yd, par 71).

To me the courses were of comperable difficulty- how in the heck can you reconcile a 12 point differential in slope!?

To show how utterly rediculous this is- according to the slope ratings, the "Yellow Tees" at Bandon (approximately 5700 yd par 72) have a male slope rating of 132!! which is only 1 less than the BLACK tees on Pacific!!!! Thus, according to the logic of the slope it would be of comperable difficulty to play the Yellow tees on Bandon to the Black Tees on Pacific! There is a 900 yard difference in yardage there plus Pacific is a par 71, so it plays even longer than 900 yards more- and the courses are of comperable difficulty? Are you kidding me?

DOES THIS MAKE ANY SENSE WHATSOVER???

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag_Bandoon

Re: Slope Rating
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2002, 04:48:24 PM »
 I'm constantly amazed at some of the slopes and hole handicaps I read.  I will be waiting for the definitive answer, too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Slope Rating
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2002, 05:19:41 PM »
The procedure is to take it up with the association that rated and sloped the golf courses (one association obviously did both and from all the tees).

If they can't explain it to you to your satisfaction the procedure is to take it up with the USGA.

I'm assuming you're asking about an apparent anomaly in slope regarding these two courses and their tees only and not a question about slope rating generally.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Slope Rating
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2002, 06:12:50 PM »
We used to speculate who was recieving and who was giving  fallacio in regard to some of the course ratings I've seen.

One of the justifications for a high slope is that a majority of people that put groups together take one look at a scorecard and if the slope is too low they won't consider it. And that is percieved as a loss of revenue to the course that feels they need to boost their rating.

Sounds like a little bit of a conflict of interest to me. So, fallacio must be the equalizer. ::) ::) ::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott Seward

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slope Rating
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2002, 06:42:20 PM »
Hope this article clears things up. As an Association guy, I can tell you that this issue promote more confusion than just about anything else. The sooner you stop relating slope to difficulty and the sooner slope is not compared course to course, the easier this will be to understand. As the article explains, course rating can be compared, slope ratings not.



Slope: The Bridge Between Scratch And Bogey Golf
by Jim Cowan, Director of Course Rating and Handicapping for the Northern California Golf Association. (From NCGA Golf Magazine)

Here's a simple question: Which golf course is more difficult?
Course A: 72.8/114
Course B: 67.8/127

Easy... at almost every handicap level, the answer is Course A!

Surprised? Many, if not most, golfers probably would have guessed Course B. This just illustrates the many myths and misunderstandings that still abound regarding the subject of Slope.

Myth No. 1: Slope is the primary indicator of difficulty or, to put it another way, the higher the Slope, the more difficult the course.

Wrong! As the above example confirms, it is the Course Rating and not the Slope which is the dominant factor in defining course difficulty.

Since each score a golfer posts is broken down into a numerical value known as a "differential," it is the Course Rating that plays the more important role in the calculation (Adjusted Score minus Course Rating). Slope merely bumps the number from the Course Rating up or down to arrive at a differential.

To put the Course Rating vs. Slope debate into perspective, it takes more than 20 units of Slope to have the same impact as a single stroke of Course Rating for a 5- handicapper. As a golfer's handicap level increases, this ratio of the importance of the two values changes, but even for a 20- handicapper it takes five to six units of Slope to have the same impact as one stroke in the Course Rating.

Myth No. 1a: Two courses with the same Slope are of equal difficulty.

Wrong! A course with a rating of 71.5/125 is about two strokes more difficult than a course with a rating of 69.6/125 at every handicap level.

Myth No. 2: Slope ratings can be compared among courses.

Wrong! I wish I had a dollar for every letter, e-mail or phone call I have received criticizing existing ratings on the basis of the Slope only. In short, there is nothing more dangerous than trying to draw any sort of meaningful conclusions by comparing Slope Ratings from one course to another.

So what is Slope? Slope merely tells you how "proportionately" more difficult that particular set of tees plays for the higher handicapped golfers. The more difficult the tees play proportionately for the higher handicappers, the greater the Slope rating that will be issued.
That's it! Slope doesn't tell you how the course proportionately plays from any other set of tees, let alone tell you how it compares with other courses.

This proportionate difficulty is measured via a Course Rating process that evaluates each hole and each shot through the eyes of a scratch golfer and bogey golfer. This process is so thorough that an actual rating for the bogey golfer is computed, and it is the gap between the Scratch and Bogey rating that determines the Slope.

For example, a set of tees may be issued a Course or Scratch rating of 70.5 and a Bogey rating of 94.3. What this means is that if a scratch golfer were to complete 20 rounds from this set of tees, we expect his 10 best scores to average around 70.5. If a golfer with a Handicap Index of 20.0 were to complete 20 rounds, we would expect his 10 best scores to average around 94.3. Based upon this gap of 23.8 strokes between the two ratings (94.3 - 70.5=23.8), a Men's Slope Rating of 128 would be issued (gap times 5.381 for men).

The Scratch and Bogey ratings are somewhat volatile, and when a series of factors or obstacles on a course tend to gang up on only one of the two golfers, curious things can happen to the Slope.

For example, if a set of tees has a high number of holes in which the bogey golfer can reach the green in "regulation," an upward pressure on the Slope will be exerted. Think about it -- on most of these holes the bogey golfer is approaching the green with a long iron or fairway wood, while the scratch golfer has a wedge or less in his/her hands. Clearly the bogey golfer is much more susceptible to any of the greenside trouble present on the holes which can cause scores to soar (bunkers, difficult chips, etc.). Such a scenario will force the bogey rating higher, widen the gap between the two ratings and result in a higher Slope.

Now consider a set of tees, even on the same course, where most of the holes are unreachable in regulation for the bogey golfer. Now it is the scratch golfer who has the longer approach shots, perhaps with mid to long irons, while the bogey golfer may merely be chipping/pitching to the green in one over regulation. To a certain degree, the tide of proportionate difficulty has turned. Though both ratings will be increased because of the added length of these tees, the gap between the Scratch and Bogey rating may stay relatively constant or may widen at a very slow rate.

These upward and downward pressures help explain why a Slope rating may increase sharply at a course from the Gold tees to the White tees (Bogey rating rising much faster than Scratch rating as the approach shots become longer), yet hardly change from White to Blue (gap increasing slowly due to shorter approach shots of the bogey golfer). It also explains how a shorter course can be issued a Slope rating that may "feel" a little high, or how a longer course may be issued a Slope rating that may "feel" a little low.

Another factor that can greatly impact the Slope is forced lay-ups. If the Scratch golfer is forced to lay up on a hole because of any one of a number of obstacles (water hazard, severe dogleg, etc.), this will increase the Scratch rating. That's because of the extra yardage of the approach shot. It will leave the Bogey rating untouched. This higher Scratch rating narrows the gap with the Bogey rating and decreases the Slope. Conversely, if the forced lay-ups only affect the higher handicapper, the Bogey rating and Slope will increase.

Never were some of these quirks of the system more evident than in early 1999 when 9-hole Course and Slope ratings were issued and 9-hole score posting became an option. I can almost hear the phone ringing now as golfers dispute the Front Nine vs. Back Nine Slope ratings.

Save your phone calls! As you can see, there is much, much more that goes into the development of a Slope than meets the eye, and besides, the Slope rating may not be nearly as important as you thought it was.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slope Rating
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2002, 07:55:34 PM »
Scott,
Well stated!  I actually took the training to become a slope rater just so I could understand it myself.  One thing I can tell you for sure, the final outcome depends A LOT on the team of slope raters that visits your golf course!  
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JohnV

Re: Slope Rating
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2002, 08:25:34 PM »
Jim's article states things very well.

The Course Rating from the Black tees at Bandon Dunes is 74.5 and the rating Pacific's Black tees is 72.9.  The course rating from the gold tees at Bandon Dunes is 69.7.  So, Bandon is 1.6 shots harder from the blacks, but 3.2 shots easier from the Gold tees than Pacific is from the blacks.

I was one of the original raters at Bandon Dunes back in 1998 and the numbers orginally came out much higher as we over-estimated the average wind speed.  After looking up the speed on the internet at Cape Arago Lighthouse (just north), we lowered our numbers.  The course has been re-rated at least once since then as are all new courses.  If it hasn't been re-rated since they started cleaning up some of the areas such as #6 and the 5th fairway, it is probably due again and will go a little lower.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slope Rating
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2002, 08:37:07 PM »
Scott,
 Thanks for taking the time to post that info. I knew the course rating was more indicative of difficulty, but wasn't quite sure how slope tied in.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slope Rating
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2002, 10:08:09 PM »
Scott's post hits the nail right on the head.  Well said!

Just this past week, I too attended a USGA sponsored Course Rating seminar here in Iowa as I have decided to volunteer to help out the IGA (Iowa Golf Association) with their rating duties which have fallen way behind.

As stated, slope (by itself) tells you NOTHING...you need to see BOTH the rating and the slope for a given set of tees in order to make a determination about the "relative" difficulty of a course.  The term slope, of course, comes from mathematics meaning the slope of a line [remember Y = Mx + B ? ] where the first y-axis is represented by the Rating number, and the second y-axis is represented by the Slope number and a "best fit" line is drawn between them.  The slope of that line gives you the relative difficulty of a given set of tees on a given course.  Plotting another set of rating/slope values on the same chart can give you an idea of which sets of tees, and also which courses are more difficult.

I hope this helps out the discussion a bit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

A_Clay_Man

Re: Slope Rating
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2002, 06:58:33 AM »
Without the longwinded explaination, could you describe the  slope as what a pro should shoot on that course from those tees?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott Seward

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slope Rating
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2002, 08:39:08 AM »
A_Clay_Man

Course Rating is what a SCRATCH golfer (defined by the standard of the stroke-play qualifiers of the US Amateur) would be expected to shoot from those tees. Slope has more to do with the bogey golfer (Handicap 17.5-22.4).

The rating system doesn't care what a pro would shoot - they don't have handicaps and that is the sole reason the system exists.

(By the way -- I think someone tried to figure Tiger's handicap at Isleworth and came up with +8 or +9)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JohnV

Re: Slope Rating
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2002, 10:09:26 AM »
As Scott said, the (Scratch) Course Rating is the score that the proverbial "scratch" golfer should shoot as his average of his 10 best scores over his last 20 rounds.  It is also defined as what the average score of the 64 qualifiers for match play would shoot at the US Amateur or some such (my books are packed so I can't look it.)

The Slope is the difference between the Scratch Course Rating and the Bogey Course Rating multiplied by a constant (5.381 for men.)

Slope = 5.381 * (BCR-SCR)

remembering our algebra we can say that:

BCR = Slope/5.381 + SCR

The Bogey Course Rating is the average of the 10 best of the last 20 for the USGA's Bogey Golfer.

So to go back to the examples of Bandon and Pacific,
The Bogey Course Ratings are:

Bandon Black : 101.4
Pacific Black: 97.6
Bandon Gold: 94.2
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slope Rating
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2002, 02:34:58 PM »
Scott-

Thank you so much for posting that great article, I now feel I have a better understanding of the whole situation.

Evan
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slope Rating
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2002, 03:15:20 PM »
Scott Seward:
Thanks for posting the article.  The entire issue of slope and course rating confuses almost everyone.  As a former handicap chairman I cannot tell you how many times I heard of misnomers and misinformation surrounding the issue of Course rating and slope.
Best
Dave Miller
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JohnV

Re: Slope Rating
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2002, 05:55:43 PM »
Many times when we show up to rate a course, the members will come up and say, "You know this course is much tougher than you guys have it rated.  It should be much higher."  I then explain that if the rating is raised, their handicaps will go down because they are shooting the same score on a harder course so they must be better golfers than they think.  In every case, they decided that the course rating didn't really need to be raised. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve Pozaric

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slope Rating
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2002, 09:23:29 PM »
You also might want to check out:

http://www.popeofslope.com/


about course and slope ratings and the fellow who started it all.

Stevepoz
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Steve Pozaric

JohnV

Re: Slope Rating
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2002, 09:51:43 AM »
I wrote the following up a couple of years ago and posted in an previous discussion about rating and slope.  Some of you who would like to know a little more about the process might enjoy reading it.

Any numbers quoted here are for the male golfers.  There are different numbers for females.

The Course Rating is defined as what the average of the 64 qualifiers at the US Amateur would shoot on the course.  It also defines what a scratch golfer would shoot for the average of his 10 best scores out of 20.  It is kind of a circular definition in that it says a scratch golfer would shoot this and if you shoot this you are a scratch golfer.  The real name for it is the Scratch Course Rating.

For rating purposes, the Scratch golfer hits his tee shot 250 yards and second shot up to 220 yards on average.  This means a 470 yard hole is reachable.  There is a transitional zone that allows the possibiliy of reaching holes up to 490 yards in 2.

There is also a Bogey Course Rating that is what a bogey golfer (as defined by the USGA) would shoot.  The bogey golfer hits it 200 yards off the tee and up to 170 on the second.  This allows him to reach a 370 yard hole in two.  Again transition zones add up to 20 yards to this.

The Slope is the difference between these two course ratings multiplied by a constant  (5.381) and rounded to the nearest integer.  Don't ask where they came up with that number.

These numbers are calculated by a team of 4 raters.  They first measure the course exactly with a laser.  Once the measurements are done, the team goes to each hole and rates it.  The rating contains two different kinds of factors.  

The first factors are yardage modifications.  These are doglegs, forced layups, prevailing wind, elevation changes and roll.  These directly change the yardages measured so that in the end you have an effective yardage as opposed to measured actual yardage.  Some of these factors may be rated differently for the scratch vs bogey golfer.  For example a hole may have a creek that crosses a fairway 240 yards from the tee.  The scratch golfer would have a layup factor of 20 yards (assume he lays up 10 yards short of it) and the bogey golfer would have no layup.

The second set of factors are called obstacle ratings.  These are rated on a 1 to 10 scale for both the scratch and bogey golfers.  The 10 factors are: topography, fairway, green target, green surface, rough and recoverability, bunkers, water, OB and extreme rough, trees and psychological.  There are tables that give basic values for all of these and they can then be modified based on various factors.  Green Target is the main factor.  The basic value is the size of the green relative to the length of shot the player has into it.  For example, on a 400 yard hole the scratch golfer has a shot of 150 yards while the bogey golfer has a shot of only 30 yards.  Therefore the scratch golfer's green target would be higher than the bogey golfers.  But on a hole of 350 yards, the scratch golfer would have a shot of 100 yards while the bogey golfer would have a shot of 150 yards so the bogey golfers target would be higher.  Also, a shot from the same distance (Say a par 3) would almost always rate higher for a bogey golfer than a scratch golfer.  The "average" value for any of these factors is 4.  A rating of 10 is extremely rare and I've probably given out less than 10 10's in rating 50 or 60 courses.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slope Rating
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2002, 10:10:04 AM »
Adam:

I rarely do this, but for such an important and seductive word, it is fellatio. For confirmation call Monica at 202-555-1600.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ed_Baker

Re: Slope Rating
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2002, 10:44:50 AM »
Another of the many reasons to participate on this site.I learned another new thing.

I have played golf virtually all my life and I had no idea what the "slope" process is. The course rating explains a lot, namely why I always get "cut" when playing in area mem-guests ::) and here I thought it was because I am such a good player! ;D Ya right, generally the course ratings are lower than my home course. Our "back tee" ratings are par 70 rated 72.3 at 133 slope and the Blues are par 72/ 71.4/131.

Another question, it seems that my "gold course,back tees" scores are used for handicap determination more than the shorter par 72 Blue Tees even though the gold scores are a shot  higher. Is this because the system uses the lowest differential? In other words I have 2 80's from the golds that are being used for handicap and 2 79's from the blues that are not, does this make sense?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JohnV

Re: Slope Rating
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2002, 03:03:57 PM »
Ed, that is correct.  The lowest 10 differentials are used in calculating your index.  Remember that calculate the differential, you subtract the course rating, divide by the slope and multply by 113 which is the slope of an "average" course.  When calculating your handicap for a course/tee, you multiply your Handicap Index by the Slope and divide by 113.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »