[Chip Gaskins]

I know most on this site feel like Merion is the ultimate in course routing...getting every ounce of the land they had to work with.  However I played SFGC on Wednesday and would be willing to put SFGC against Merion in routing efficacy any day.  The first 8 holes at SFGC so perfectly flow together and utilize every land feature that was naturally there to begin with in a way I simply have not seen before.  Maybe it is better, maybe it is not, but I now have a new admiration for routing after seeing this masterpiece.

Also Tom Doak did an outstanding job with the restoration work here.  This might be the best bunkered course I have ever played.  The par 3 13th is certainly one of the best short holes in golf.

[Joel_Stewart]

The first 8 holes at SFGC so perfectly flow together and utilize every land feature that was naturally there to begin with in a way I simply have not seen before. 

Of the first 8 holes, only #4 runs north-south.  All of the others run east-west?

What was your favorite hole?
Did you see any poa in the greens?

[Chip Gaskins]

Joel-

You are correct.  Both the front and back nine for the most part run east to west and though that probably seems very much "the same" back and forth RTJ type routing this one weaves perfectly through the valleys and peninsula fairways in my opinion.  1, 3, 6 are on natural peninsulas and 2, 7, 8 are in natural valleys.

The greens were perfect.  No Poa what so ever in their bent.  Rolling probably 11.

Chip

[SPDB]

Echoing Joel's point, of all the superlatives that can be heaped on SFGC, routing wouldn't be the first that comes to mind.  All but 5 of the holes move east-west/west-east, and of those 5, 3 of them are par 3s.

Not sure what you mean about "peninsulas."

I agree with everything else you say, particularly the bunkering, which is awesome. So are some of the little nuances - for example #3, which asks for a left to right tee ball and right to left approach shot.   

The routing comparison between SFGC and Merion, however, seems amiss. Merion is an economical routing on a very small parcel. San Francisco, not so much.   

[Tom_Doak]

I would agree with the posters that the routing of SFGC is not as complex as Merion's.  After all, SFGC is a rectangular site ... Merion has little corners, streams, a quarry, a road crossing, etc.

I would disagree with the premise that having a lot of east/west holes in a routing (or a lot of north/south holes) is a weakness.  Sometimes that's what the property gives you.  Let's take the front nine at SFGC as an example:

Obviously you are not going to play north and south over the valley on #7 and #8, so those holes are routed first.  With those in place, it seems like a good decision to play #6 along the rim of the valley, doesn't it?  Three holes in place.

Now, how far do you think it is from the first fairway to the fifth fairway, if you wanted to run the rest of the holes north and south?  It's somewhere in the neighborhood of 300-350 yards.  Plus, you want to play #7 going east, which means you need to play #6 going west, which means you can't have a bunch of north-south holes starting from the clubhouse without having a hole to get back from the west end ... and if you built that hole (either #5 or a backwards version of #1), then the north-south holes would only be 200-250 yards long.

Generally speaking, once you start playing a couple of holes in one direction on a rectangular site, it's difficult to not keep going that way.  The fact that the valleys on #2 and #7/8 at SFGC both run east and west makes the rest of those holes play east and west.  I suppose the back nine could have had more north & south holes after #11, but I believe that the original green site for #12 and the view on #18 prompted those holes to be routed east and west, and everything else followed from there.

It's a very good routing.

[Chip Gaskins]

by peninsulas i meant natural plateaus or as Tom Doak said "rim of the valley".

i also didn't think a course had to have holes going off in 45 degree angles from each other to be consider a great routing.  my point at SFGC is that it so effectively used the valleys and plateaus.  it just seemed very efficient just as many say about Merion.  efficient or not, it is a fantastic design and probably the best bunkered course i have played.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
You commented:

"I would disagree with the premise that having a lot of east/west holes in a routing (or a lot of north/south holes) is a weakness.  Sometimes that's what the property gives you."

I'm surprised you feel a lot of east/west holes might not be a weakness.  Maybe it depends on where they are in the routing but I would respectfully disagree especially it the starting holes run east and the finishing holes face west.  I compare it a bit to a baseball field that is "improperly routed" or should I say poorly situated.  Baseball is almost impossible (if not dangerous) to play if the batter is starting straight into the sun.  I've played some golf courses where the sun glare is so bad that it is very difficult to play (and not a lot of fun) as you just can't see where you are going let alone where your golf ball ends up.  Rub of the green (maybe) but probably more what I'd call a routing weakness.  And yes I know there are a lot of great courses that have east/west starting/finishing holes 

Mark

[Adam Clayman]

Mark, That's a pretty weak reason to ding a whole course. How many groups does that affect in any given day at a particular time of year?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam Clayman,

I think Mark Fine's point is valid.

The overwhelming number of courses don't start to the East and finish to the West.

As to the number of people if affects, it affects everyone teeing off in the early morning and everyone finishing later in the day.

That's a substantial number.

[Adam Clayman]

A substantial number?

Bulls hit!

The rotation of the earth makes teeing off directly into the sun a rare occurrence, same is true about sunsets.

In the case of CPC an eastward facing 1st hole, the only time the sun is directly in your face is in early Jan/late Dec. And how many golfer's tee off between 7:24 and 7:48 on those days? A substantial number?

Do you not consider CPC to be one of the great courses of the world?

Do you think less of CPC because of this orientation of the first hole?

Pebble Beach's 18th goes directly west, is that a consideration in valuing the architecture?

Why would one think less of any course, then?

[Mark_Fine]

Adam,
You can call it what you want but finishing holes that aim directly west are not ideal from a routing standpoint.  Same goes for starting holes that go East.  If you had the option, you'd do what ever you can to not orient a practice range that way for the same reason     

[Adam Clayman]

The practice range I can get behind, but the rest seems formulaic for a golf course. And, as Tom says, You get what the land gives you on great courses.

I'm sure it's a much easier process to design it on a computer and move the dirt.

[Mike Golden]

Considering that the sun is shining early in the morning or late in the day at SFGC no more than about 20 days a year this is a moot point relative to this specific course.

[Phil_the_Author]

The real key is what is someone thinking when they walk off the course.

If it's "Damn sun... man that was annoying." Then the routing sucked.

If it's "I've GOT to play this again!" Then the routing is great.

Can anyone here say they've ever heard a single person complain about sun in the eyes at SFGC?

[Mark_Fine]

When I made the comment, I wasn't referring to SFGC or any particular course.  SFGC happens to be one of my favorites and I've played it a have dozen or more times and don't recall any issues with the sun.  Must have been when I played it.  At the same time, I have played courses where it can be a real distraction.  In fact I've played holes (course names don't matter) where I literally could not see any of the finishing holes because the sun glare was soooo bad.  Call it a routing flaw, call it a ding, call it what you want. 

By the way, I don't always buy the line "that's what the land gives you".  Sometimes that might be the case or certain restraints might limit or force a certain routing, but most of the time I think the architect has options to choose from. 

[Deucie Bies]

What does everyone think about the new hoels 13-15?  I think 13 and 15 have the potential to turn into great holes.  I love the short par 3 with all sorts of trouble.

[Adam Clayman]

Mike, I think it's even more moot for these two courses. But, I can get turned around.
 The surrounding terrain on both really makes it moot.

Wasn't the issue too many going in one direction?

would disagree with the premise that having a lot of east/west holes in a routing (or a lot of north/south holes) is a weakness.  Sometimes that's what the property gives you.

[Patrick_Mucci]

A substantial number?

Bulls hit!

The rotation of the earth makes teeing off directly into the sun a rare occurrence, same is true about sunsets.

"The rotation of the earth" ?

That's funny.

The fact remains that when the sun sits low on the horizon, in the morning and late afternoon, teeing off to the east on the 1st hole and to the west on the 18th hole is a no-no.

See how many courses you can name that have that configuration, especially Golden Age courses.  It was a almost a tenet of design.

In the case of CPC an eastward facing 1st hole, the only time the sun is directly in your face is in early Jan/late Dec. And how many golfer's tee off between 7:24 and 7:48 on those days? A substantial number?

You've conveniently forgotten information and facts that dilute the effect of the sun in the morning at CPC.

Namely, the tee is elevated above the fairway at about 15 meters versus 8 meters at the start of the green, so you're looking down and not at the horizon or slightly above it.

And, not too far behind the green, the terrain changes dramatically with the land rising up to more than 70 meters, effectively blocking the low morning sun.

These two features effectively offset any effect that a morning sun would have.

Do you not consider CPC to be one of the great courses of the world?


Yes, I do.

Do you think less of CPC because of this orientation of the first hole?


You can't view the orientation in a vacuum.

You have to consider and add in the other two (2) critical factors, which ameliorate and eliminate the problems with the morning sun.

Pebble Beach's 18th goes directly west, is that a consideration in valuing the architecture?

I can see that you are "directionally impaired"

The 18th at Pebble Beach tees off to the NorthWest, not the west.

Why would one think less of any course, then?

When your facts are wrong, your premise is wrong and your conclusions are wrong.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Patrick,
I'd say that Adam's suggestion that the 18th at Pebble faces directly west is at least one-third right and for better players, half-right.  As this image shows, a talented player attempting to reach the 18th green at Pebble in two at sunset would face directly west or slightly north of west, and during the weeks around the equinoxes would have the sun directly in his eyes.   In fact, if you're there this week and the sun is shining, you could check it out yourself.

Similarly players attempting to reach in three from the typical position would face directly west or slightly south of west. 

[Ian_L]

I remember Tom Doak mentioned the sun on the 18th at Pebble Beach in his architecture book.  He also mentioned it provides the perfect view for cameras looking back at the hole from the green.

[Tom_Doak]

Ian:

Pete Dye taught me that -- I asked him why the 18th hole at the TPC at Sawgrass played dead west into the setting sun, and he mentioned how good the 18th at Pebble Beach looked on TV. 

I played Pebble a few times at the twilight rate when I was young, and struggled with the sun (usually on the tee shot) on 18.

[TEPaul]

"... Merion has little corners,"


TomD:

Very fine point there with Merion and it's "little corners."

It is most interesting to see how the club had to buy and barter for little pieces of ground here and there over the years around the periphery of the original purchase to make the course work as well as it does.

The real estate transaction history of Merion in this way is something to see.

Perhaps the most interesting one of all involved that famous Richard Francis story of going to see Horatio Gates Lloyd in the middle of the night to get permission to move the line of a theretofore unbuilt road to be able to fit the 15th green and the 16th tee up into an existing triangle that was too narrow, and thereby being able to complete the routing and design on the last five hole stretch which is arguably on of the most famous in the history of golf.

Of course Francis did that in the first half of 1911 and not before Nov. 1910 as this recent revisionist essay writer has reported and is still trying to maintain despite all records to the contrary. Matter of fact, Lloyd put himself or was put in that position by the club purposefully at the end of December, 1910 and not before Nov 1910, obviously preparatory to be able to do that very kind of thing in 1911.

[Phil_the_Author]

For much of the summer months, on the Black, Red and Green courses, all the first holes play directly into the morning sun (though since all are tee shots down into a valley it isn't a real problem, and all 18th holes play directly into the setting sun, which again is usually not a problem since the Green & Black are both well uphill on the second shots and all three have either or both trees and clubhouse blocking the sun.

Strange to see three courses on one site routed in a way that breaks the rule...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Eric Torhurst,

The tee shot is to the NORTHWEST.

Few, if any, are concerned about a sixty yard wedge shot, especially when you consider the backdrop to # 18.

Phillip Young,

Like CPC, one has to consider the terrain and its influence on the tee shots at BP.  The terrain makes it a non-factor.

As to the similarity in the direction of the starting and finishing holes at BP, it's a function of the location of the clubhouse.

[Jed Peters]

Considering that the sun is shining early in the morning or late in the day at SFGC no more than about 20 days a year this is a moot point relative to this specific course.

Not to mention there's probably 20 rounds a year on during these times on the course in total!

People forget this place gets more PGA play on monday than every other day of the week combined....

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