Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???

[JSPayne]

It seems this thread has got a little flamed up and out of hand and I think Adrian is right to bring it back to Ian's original post. Let's clear a few things up again:

Ian, I apologize if you took my posts to be any criticism of your work or programs. Completely not my intention. My intention was two-fold:

(1) You say anyone that says the "BENT IS BEST" is misinformed and naiive, saying that one particular grass cannot be best due to the many climates and global situations even though you do actually claim, in your orginal post, that Poa is the best putting surface (when managed correctly of course). Seems hypocritical......

(2) You started getting worked up by "armchair superintendents" or others who aren't....I guess, seasoned.....supers like yourself that like to throw in their two cents on this board. My long post was not to criticize your programs but to argue that non-armchair supers would not do the same exact thing, the same exact way, with the same exact frequency with complete disregard to the type of grass they're growing. As you again countered when discussing UK courses, with different budgets, expectations (and I would hope with different grass types with different needs) you SHOULD do things differently. Same basics, yes, but maybe not the same way with the same frequency. THAT'S the part of your claim I was arguing against. If you walked in the door for this job and my GM asked you, "I see you've worked mainly with Poa greens.....how would you manage these greens differently being predominantly Bentgrass?" and you said "Nothing....I would manage them the same," your resume would go in the round file.

In what I hope to be somewhat of a conclusive statement, and getting back toward the orginal question: Why the hatred towards Poa annua? I simply state two things for the hatred:

(1) Agreeing with Adrian, if you asked 100 supers whether they'd prefer brand new 100% bent vs. 100% poa greens, the overwhelming majority would choose Bent. Why?

(2) For all the reasons you describe as being necessary to justify your clause of "MANAGED CORRECTLY" in order to be the best putting surface. There is nothing wrong, per say, with Poa as a putting surface, as we've concluded, there are EXCELLENT greens with mostly Poa. The hatred stems from the fact that MORE intensive maintenance, chemicals, costs, fretting, handwatering, late nights and long days are required to maintain Poa to this high standard of being dubbed an "excellent green" of the likes of Oakmont, where bentgrass, as a comparable putting surface, still requiring NORMAL, BASIC greens maintenance practices, factually requires much LESS inputs and time, as I numerically pointed out, in the way of irrigation, labor attention, nutrients and fungicides.

That is merely my case.....Bent may not be "best," and Poa may not be "worst," but I firmly take my stance that (for the third time, and you can quote me on it), from a maintenance and subjective playability (meaning my own personal taste) standpoint, Bentgrass greens are better than Poa greens.

[JSPayne]

One last shameless question, that might help definitively clear all this up:

Ian,

Provided the location and budget was equally ideal for growing and maintaining bent or poa, if you were presented with a newly constructed course to maintain and had complete say over what grass type was planted for your greens, which would you choose?

[Bradley Anderson]

One last shameless question, that might help definitively clear all this up:

Ian,

Provided the location and budget was equally ideal for growing and maintaining bent or poa, if you were presented with a newly constructed course to maintain and had complete say over what grass type was planted for your greens, which would you choose?

J,

Let me answer that question. I would go with the A series bent. And then I would fight Poa like the plague.

[TX Golf]

Hey guys,

Again... thanks for all the info. I never thought I would get this many responses to this thread but it has been great. After reading you discussion I feel like I could grow my own putting green (just joking). After hearing about all these different types of diseases I was wondering if any superintendents out there have any photos of what the grass looks like when compromised by these different diseases. Let me know. Thanks.

Robert

[Jon Wiggett]

JS,

you are also guilty of what you acuse Ian of (before you start I am too). You say he is not consistant in his approach but first of all you get worked up about choosing the wrong man   and then disagree with someone who has exactly his approach in the case you quoted. I guess that goes to show how many different point of views and approaches are valid if you look at them the right way.

You also ask what type of grass would you chose. What type of Poa annua strains are available on the market. I haven't seen any but maybe in the US you have them, otherwise it is a bit of a loaded question wouldn't you say?

[JSPayne]

Jon,

Not sure I completely understand your anology, but I'll be the first to admit my posts can sometimes send mixed messages. I try to reread them twice before I post, but some sort of connotation always seems to sneak through! 

As for Poa strains, someone posted a link earlier to research being done in this field, though in all honesty I've never seen or heard of Poa being seeded on new greens. Could be my naiive super experience.  But what I have seen is Poa plugged (using plug cores from an aerated green that has a good stand of Poa) and overseeded with bent to create the common variety mix of Poa/bent found in most greens.

I would hope it's not a loaded question, just a simple one. I don't intend to argue alot about it, I'm just curious how Ian would respond as I just feel that most supers would answer as Bradley did.

[Steve Okula]

Tried to post photos and failed.

Tried to delete post entirely and failed.

Left sad debris instead.

[TX Golf]

haha ....thanks for the effort!!

to post photos you need to join a site like photobucket.com, upload them to the site, and then you can copy and paste the IMG code to your post and the photos should work.

Robert

[Ian Larson]

To all,

I think this happens alot on here. We all start at the same place, then go completely different directions, and come back to where we started. Because underneath everything, we really dont disagree THAT much.


Yes, in my initial staement I did say poa is the best. But that came with a stipulation that "if it was managed correctly.". That stipulation takes it from a blanket / general statement to a more specific one. "Managed correctly" could have different meanings to different people based upon their own experiences. It also has to take into consideration different scenarios in different parts of the world.

"Managed Correctly"....

In my world managing poa correctly one must first understand that bent/poa and even poa alone can create a bumpy surface. If thats understood then I think we would all agree that there are a couple things needed to prevent a bumpy surface....

....grooming and plant growth regulators. And in my world, those are not hard things to accomplish. The grooming removes puffiness and the plant growth regulator brings all plant species down to the same rate of topical growth. In fact, I would be doing these regardless of a bumpy surface because they also have secondary benefits. The grooming removes exess tissue in the canopy, stands grass blades upright and promotes tillering. The plant growth regulator suppresses topical growth and translocates that energy from topical growth to root development. Home run if ask me. I track plant growth by having the greens mowers weigh grass clippings and tracking the weights for a clipping yield.

Along with the plant growth regulators come the not so frequent seed suppresion chemicals to keep seed production tame. And the existing grooming program is already chopping off any existing seeds.

Next would be nutrition. I can get away with putting down .1 to .12 lbs of N every other week. That in itself adds up to about 3 lbs annually in addition to extra N inputs during aerifications which average about 1 lb each time. Annual N inputs are at least 5 lbs but actually end up being around 6, maybe 7 lbs in a year. But unlikely. Every other week a foliar application and the oppesite weeks the soils applications which contain no N and are aimed at soils oxygen, flocculation, salt management, water infiltration and nutrient deficiency maintenance.

Its my belief that when the grass is being fed correctly and synthesizing like a Ferrari, you have a healthy grass plant. A healthy grass plant that is less susceptible to disease just like the human body.

So with disease, I spray about once a month which I dont think is so uncommon. If you can go 2 or 3 months without spraying god bless you, youre lucky.

All of this with sound water management and paying attention to the greens playability is "managed correctly", to me. Of course this isnt a template for everybody but I think that the frame of it is. Of course rates of fert and frequency of fungicides are always changing to adapt to different situations. Or even the frequency of grooming is decreased because of high disease pressure or even weather. But this is where I think the essence of being a superintendent lies, embracing the fact that its an art and a science. Learning how to be in touch with nature and being able to adapt to it always changing on you while keeping that picture of the final product in the back of your head and always working toward it.

Would I use this same frame of a program with Bent greens? Yes

Would I use the same rates of fert, fungicide or water? No, those are the variables.

Would I groom Bent the same way? Yes. That is a constant to me. Verticutting, Grooming, Brushing, Topdressing and Rolling.


Let me stop here and Ill be back to address peoples specific questions they asked me in a bit. The old lady is not really happy wih excess GCA time and less old lady time. Dinners ready.......

[Steve Okula]

Ian,

6-7 lbs. N/M per year is a lot.

I'm doing 2-2.5 on bent/Poa open all year long.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Ian you talk about 'managed correctly'. Its seems very expensive and I have to say dangerous, you are forcing that plant to grow at an excessive rate. Your expecting cell growth and plant division about four times faster that what we would look for this side of the pond. I am a bit dim on experience with growth regulators and I will bow to your better knowledge of there usuage, but forcing that plant will cause waste material, ie thatch at an alarming rate, you would need to pretty much be diluting your green with straight sand top dressing weekly, again very expensive. This may be a way forward with big budget courses but you are not going to be able to do this if your green fee is sub $75. I think managing bent and spending your money and resources on hand weeding and plugging would be cheaper.....I was going to say better but it might provoke more argueing.

[Ian Larson]

Adrian,

Theres your problem right there. You dont use plant growth regulators religeously. If you have bent / poa greens no wonder you prefer pure bent. I couldnt imagine how my greens would ever putt smooth without using Primo. I use one link pack a year. Or 20 oz. every other week. Hows that expensive? And for the positive effects it has on controlling topical growth, evening out all the different species growth rates and pushing root growth....Id say its worth every penny. In fact Id even say its a bargain.

Again Adrian, heres where you go in the wrong direction. You throw out comments like " very expensive" and  "very dangerous" and "excessive rate"  and "four times faster".....

....Youve never stepped foot on my property, youve never even seen the greens, you have no idea what I use and what I pay as far as fertilizer.

I would never make those remarks about your greens or anything concerning your operation because youre in a different freakin' country!! With completely different circumstances!! You still dont get that just because mine is different, it doesnt make it wrong. And Im starting to think you never will.

 Putting down .1 lb of N every other week along with .125 oz / 1000 of primo is not excessive, its not expensive, its not dangerous. Its standard protocol for spoon feeding. The leaf blades are nice and thin, not bloated with excessive Nitrogen. And the roots are great for being the end of the summer. The putting surface is firm, fast, dense, disease free with nothing but upright growth.

Heres another one Adrian, "but forcing that plant will cause waste material, ie thatch at an alarming rate". Really? What rate is my organic matter accumulating Adrian? And what calculation did you make to come to the conclusion that my cell growth and plant division is "four times faster"? Thats awesome you can make that calculation in the UK about a southern california golf course youve never been on.

"waste material"....I know my greens are accumulating organic material at around 20% annually.

I topdress VERY lightly every other week.

I aerify twice a year with 3/8" tines @ 2" spacing.

I Graden verticut one direction twice a year.

I also aerify once a month with 1/4" tines at 2" spacing using the 10 tine holding blocks with four blocks equalling 40 tines.



Adrian please at least ask for some details from me before you make accusations. Im doing exactly what my greens require and the product is meeting the memberships expectations within our budget.

I strive everyday to make sure the greens are at a level that if the USGA wanted to show up any random day with an Open the greens are already where they need to be.

The point I made about poa being the best WHEN MAINTAINED CORRECTLY, is based off of poa being the densest grass out there. And if its taken care of that density gives the ball its truest, smoothest roll. Im on the greens everyday putting around after the morning work. If I see that ball even bounce slightly across the green I get pissed off. I maintain them as smooth as a babies ass and if presented with a job that had a lower budget I would still accomplish that.

If you have bent / poa greens and dont use Primo nor do you groom but every so often. Im not so sure I would even want to putt on them for 75$ a round. Especially if your hand weeding and plugging all the greens all the time. Having numerous plugs and spots where its obvious poa was plucked out is not a level of standard I want to have for my greens.

[Ian Larson]

Steve,

My growing season is 365 days a year.

This is out of Vargas and Turgeons Poa Annua book.


http://books.google.com/books?id=PtnRMlhbbaoC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=annual+nitrogen+requirement+for+poa+annua&source=web&ots=PqkYcw9rAN&sig=CEFLamuwHEZaT1G655ntgAMlE-s&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result


Plus if anybody has any questions or misbeliefs about poa this is the complete book.

[Steve Okula]

Steve,

My growing season is 365 days a year.

This is out of Vargas and Turgeons Poa Annua book.


http://books.google.com/books?id=PtnRMlhbbaoC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=annual+nitrogen+requirement+for+poa+annua&source=web&ots=PqkYcw9rAN&sig=CEFLamuwHEZaT1G655ntgAMlE-s&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result


Plus if anybody has any questions or misbeliefs about poa this is the complete book.

There is no final word in turf. Nobody knows everything.

I have met Dr. Turgeon, and he will be the first to tell you he is still learning and will never stop doing so.

I find his recommendations for nitrogen on Poa greens to be excessive for my present situation. In my opinion, there is never a need to put a pound of N down on such a green all at once. If I did, it would cause problems with green speed and Fusarium.

[Steve Curry]

The nitrogen needs are so dependent on situational factors rendering comparison and generalizations useless.  Poa is fine if the climate is conducive!  Otherwise its a scourge.

Cheers,
Steve

[Adrian_Stiff]

Ian... when I was looking costs I was relating to the operational time. How many staff do you have? In the UK many only have 4 and 6 would be a nice number. I do want to learn more about growth regulators, they have only recently gone legal over here.

[Steve Okula]

haha ....thanks for the effort!!

to post photos you need to join a site like photobucket.com, upload them to the site, and then you can copy and paste the IMG code to your post and the photos should work.

Robert

Robert, thank you so much for showing me the light. Here are photos of Fusarium from my golf course in September, 2006.. Several greens were hit hard. You can't let your guard down for a minute.





The tape measure is in centimeters. You can see the white mycelium, the active fungus growth in the close up photos of the patches. It can't be discerned from the photos, but the Fusarium affects the Poa and Poa only.

[Bradley Anderson]

haha ....thanks for the effort!!

to post photos you need to join a site like photobucket.com, upload them to the site, and then you can copy and paste the IMG code to your post and the photos should work.

Robert

Robert, thank you so much for showing me the light. Here are photos of Fusarium from my golf course in September, 2006.. Several greens were hit hard. You can't let your guard down for a minute.





The tape measure is in centimeters. You can see the white mycelium, the active fungus growth in the close up photos of the patches. It can't be discerned from the photos, but the Fusarium affects the Poa and Poa only.

I feel your pain brother. Yikes. You must be located in the north?

[Ian Larson]

Steve,

Are the spots infected with fusarium representative to the percentage of poa you have?

If not, what percentage do you have?

If the fusarium spots are representative to your percentage of poa why are you keeping it around?

If your fertility program prevents fusarium then what happened here?

If the spots of fusarium are representative of your percentage of poa would you consider that a bent / poa green?


My initial thoughts without knowing the answers are if the spots represent the general percentage of poa I wouldnt consider that a bent / poa green. I would call that a bent green that is being managed as bent that is being infested with poa. And if you are managing your greens as bent, as your fertility rates show, how can you conclude that only high rates of N will instigate fusarium. Because you obviously got fusaium with low rates as well. And if this is the result of high N why were you putting a high rate of N with your low N program?

With the dew on the green its a little harder to see any segragation between the poa and the bent. Thats why Im asking if the infected spots represent (plus or minus) the poa population. And if you were to say that you have mostly poa then I would say this is a case that shows how consistent a poa green can look aesthetically. But my intuition is telling me what we are seeing is mostly bent with a peppering of poa.

[TX Golf]

Steve,

Thanks for the photos... that stuff looks pretty nasty. How did the greens recover??

[Ian Larson]

To get back to Bill and JSPaynes questions....


Bill Brightly,

I dont know what to think about interseeding and overseeding bent into poa. All I can say is that from my experience on the east west coast it wasnt overly successful. Not successful enough to say that the bent was even coming close to outcompeting the poa. Yes, after doing it you see little bent seedlings coming up here and there but it wasnt in an abundance. My only other opinion on it would be that if you are ina time where disease pressure is very high and turf quality is struggling due to something like anthracnose, I would be slinging the bent like crazy.

But no, I dont think supers or the USGA men that recommend it are off base. I think you just have to realistic in the expectations of it and realize its pretty much a bandaid and that you arent likely to end up with a bent green anytime soon.

(where Im coming from on this is that the greens in question would be mostly poa)



JSPayne,

If I had my choice between Bent or Poa?

If in an arid and cool climate I would love to have Poa.

If I was in New Jersey, the transition zone or anything south down to Florida I would want Bent.

If I was in Southern Florida, Southern Texas or Mexico I would want Bermuda.



I would maintain the same grooming principles and application styles for all three and adjust rate and frequency of water, fert and fungicide to what climate calls for.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ian,

why do think that the density of grass gives a better putting surface. I disagree as it also requires you to have a very low height of cut on the greens. This is fine in areas where you can cut low all of the year but where you can't then you are in for untrue greens in the winter time.

[Steve Okula]

Steve,

Are the spots infected with fusarium representative to the percentage of poa you have?

If not, what percentage do you have?

If the fusarium spots are representative to your percentage of poa why are you keeping it around?

If your fertility program prevents fusarium then what happened here?

If the spots of fusarium are representative of your percentage of poa would you consider that a bent / poa green?


My initial thoughts without knowing the answers are if the spots represent the general percentage of poa I wouldnt consider that a bent / poa green. I would call that a bent green that is being managed as bent that is being infested with poa. And if you are managing your greens as bent, as your fertility rates show, how can you conclude that only high rates of N will instigate fusarium. Because you obviously got fusaium with low rates as well. And if this is the result of high N why were you putting a high rate of N with your low N program?

With the dew on the green its a little harder to see any segragation between the poa and the bent. Thats why Im asking if the infected spots represent (plus or minus) the poa population. And if you were to say that you have mostly poa then I would say this is a case that shows how consistent a poa green can look aesthetically. But my intuition is telling me what we are seeing is mostly bent with a peppering of poa.

Well, Ian, you're intuition is wrong.

The Fusarium affected only a small percentage of the Poa population, the green is 50%. Regular Primo applications also mask the Poa.

I never said my fertility program prevents Fusarium. I said if I put more nitrogen I would have a  problem.
Nitrogen alone doesn't cause or prevent Fusarium, but it is an important contributing factor. That green had less than 2 lbs. N on it up to that date in the year, most of it spoon-fed, with the last granular application two months previous - Sustain 1/2 lb. N

At the time, I was on a preventative fungicide program as well. That green had been treated with both iprodione and fenarimol at full rates in the two weeks leading up to the outbreak.

I posted the photo to make the point that Poa is definitely susceptible to Fusarium.

And Bradley, yes, we're just outside of Paris.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Steve, in the old days we never fed past the last day of August in the UK, basically for the reasons you just said, Nitrogen increases the chance of Fusarium....we let them go lean into the winter, then an agronomist came along and said I should apply a slow release fertiliser at half rate over the winter and OMG we had Fusarium everywhere. I had gone 3 years without an application before. Iron helps keep the Fusarium away a bit, I think the worst thing is the foggy, dewey conditions that can settle in during damp autumn days.

[Ian Larson]

Jon,

If you are a superintendent and you dont understand or dont agree with the fact that poa annua always has a higher shoot density than bentgrass and how that higher shoot density sits the ball up higher giving the ball a truer rule, Im afraid we are in completely different leagues. Just because poa annua is denser does not mean it cannot be mowed at a higher cutting height. In season I have poa down to .90" and raise it to .125" in the winter. I know these arent in metric but just how high could you possibly want your greens? .150"....175"......200" !!!!?

And again, you dont use plant growth regulators. I dont know how you could ever maintain poa annua greens without Primo and still come away with a great and true rolling green. And if you have to raise the height so high in the winter to where it looks like a cornfield, (not sure why you would), you need Primo even more.

Look at Steves green, hes uses a plant growth regulator. And honestly, I know a picture can be decieving, but that green looks sooo consistent between the bent and poa. And Steve said he even has a 50 / 50 mix. Steves greens are a testament to how consistent a bent / poa green can be if managed correctly. Consistency in aestehetics and ball roll.