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JC Urbina

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Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2008, 11:58:00 PM »
Ajay
CBM wrote that a bunker worth any merit should be discussed and debated as to its placement and quality.

John Kirk

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Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2008, 06:47:52 PM »
I've said this before in so many words.  I see no reason why this won't be the premiere shot-making, ball-watching course at the Bandon resort.  Pacific Dunes is currently my favorite course at the resort, but in my opinion, it requires a more traditional aerial attack than Tom's Ballyneal course, where optional trajectories and alternative strategies are suggested on a more regular basis.  Ballyneal is also the greatest ball-watching course I regularly play, where the ball disappears and reappears on the fairways, and greenside shots are played away from the hole to a higher degree than Pacific Dunes.

I've seen the land and how the Old Macdonald is laid out.  I see no reason why Tom and Jim and the associates cannot evolve from what must seem to be the pinnacle of success to an even higher plane of design.  Pacific Dunes is, in many ways, a heroic design, where a certain shot of must be executed. with considerable penalty for failure.

In golf, there are perhaps three types of elation.  First, there is the awe of nature and beauty which a beautiful course will induce.  Then there are two types for the actual golf, the triumph of a successful shot (the fist-pumping "Yes!"), or the spontaneous laughter from an amusing result (the disarming "look at that thing go!").

Even though Old Macdonald will be longer and probably more difficult in terms of pure score, I predict it will be more of a "Look at that thing go!" course, and to me, that is a greater accomplishment.


John:  Gee John, that's quite a grandiose sentiment.  Frankly, I'm a bit concerned about your mental health.  Are you feeling OK?  Grandiose, self-important statements like these often the sign of manic depression, or even a spilt personality disorder.

John:  Don't talk to me that way.  I know exactly what I'm doing.  Tom and Jim and the guys appreciate every word.  They understand that my analysis and encouragement motivate them to greater levels of personal achievement.

John:  If you say so, but the original post is pretty unfocused.

John:  You just don't understand the depth of insight.  It's OK, nobody else does either.  What happened to us, anyway?

John:  I don't know, but you'd better start talking sense, or people will think everyone with the initials "JK" is crazy.

John:  I wouldn't want us to relinquish our position as the premier authority on observational architectural dynamics.  That would be a shame.

John:  Yes it would...so it's OK with you if I submit the occasional weak argument out for the world to see?

John:  At this point, John, I've lost track whether I'm the sane one or the crazy one.  Have we been drinking again?

John:  No, of course not.  We're sober for the long haul, buddy, but we've been mixing in way too many diet Cokes.  But just so we're straight on one thing...we love this Old Macdonald thing, don't we?

John:  You're damn right, we do.  We live 2000 miles from the nearest Macdonald or Raynor course, and if we're lucky enough to get invited, we'll play it once.  This one here, we can drive down there and spend a week there every year if we want.  Then we can speak authoritatively on the subject.  Everyone will admire our knowledge.

John:  All our favorite templates will be there!

John:  I know!  I feel better, how about you?

John:  I do too!  Best friends forever!

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2008, 07:00:43 PM »
I've said this before in so many words.  I see no reason why this won't be the premiere shot-making, ball-watching course at the Bandon resort.  Pacific Dunes is currently my favorite course at the resort, but in my opinion, it requires a more traditional aerial attack than Tom's Ballyneal course, where optional trajectories and alternative strategies are suggested on a more regular basis.  Ballyneal is also the greatest ball-watching course I regularly play, where the ball disappears and reappears on the fairways, and greenside shots are played away from the hole to a higher degree than Pacific Dunes.
Gee John, that's quite a grandiose sentiment.  Frankly, I'm a bit concerned about your mental health.  Are you feeling OK?  Grandiose, self-important statements like these often the sign of manic depression, or even a spilt personality disorder.

Don't talk to me that way.  I know exactly what I'm doing.  Tom and Jim and the guys appreciate every word.  They understand that my analysis and encouragement motivate them to greater levels of personal achievement.

If you say so, but the original post is pretty unfocused.

You just don't understand the depth of insight.  It's OK, nobody else does either.  What happened to us, anyway?

I don't know, but you'd better start talking sense, or people will think everyone with the initials "JK" is crazy.



I've seen the land and how the Old Macdonald is laid out.  I see no reason why Tom and Jim and the associates cannot evolve from what must seem to be the pinnacle of success to an even higher plane of design.  Pacific Dunes is, in many ways, a heroic design, where a certain shot of must be executed. with considerable penalty for failure.
John:  I wouldn't want us to relinquish our position as the premier authority on observational architectural dynamics.  That would be a shame.

Yes it would...so it's OK with you if I submit the occasional weak argument out for the world to see?

At this point, John, I've lost track whether I'm the sane one or the crazy one.  Have we been drinking again?

No, of course not.  We're sober for the long haul, buddy, but we've been mixing in way too many diet Cokes.  But just so we're straight on one thing...we love this Old Macdonald thing, don't we?

You're damn right, we do.  We live 2000 miles from the nearest Macdonald or Raynor course, and if we're lucky enough to get invited, we'll play it once.  This one here, we can drive down there and spend a week there every year if we want.  Then we can speak authoritatively on the subject.  Everyone will admire our knowledge.


In golf, there are perhaps three types of elation.  First, there is the awe of nature and beauty which a beautiful course will induce.  Then there are two types for the actual golf, the triumph of a successful shot (the fist-pumping "Yes!"), or the spontaneous laughter from an amusing result (the disarming "look at that thing go!").

All our favorite templates will be there!

I know!  I feel better, how about you?

I do too!  Best friends forever!


Even though Old Macdonald will be longer and probably more difficult in terms of pure score, I predict it will be more of a "Look at that thing go!" course, and to me, that is a greater accomplishment.

John, great reply. I really think if we are going to talk to ourselves we should do it in color. ;D

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
I was surfing the net and found this article in Links Magazine regarding Old MacDonald.

http://linksmagazine.typepad.com/loose_impediments/2008/08/big-mac.html


Proposed layout

Tom Doak,

Having looked at Old Mac's layout, I had noticed that the 13th, 14th and 15th hole on Pacific Dunes are on the bottom of the image of the Old Mac layout. I am suprised that you have devised a layout that will have crosswinds on some of the holes notably 5, 8, 15 and 16. This is almost a 'Birkdale' like layout with doglegs where crosswinds could potentially be a huge factor. 17 looks a great strategic 'Lido' style hole. Is it a personal dislike playing crosswinds. NGLA has holes in different directions which probably increases its difficulty.

Look forward seeing how this course develops in the future. The greens look wild!!

Ben

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2008, 11:04:02 AM »
Ben:

Yes, those four holes on Old Macdonald will all be affected by crosswinds.

The two par-3's (Short #5 and Biarritz #8) are already constructed, and in both cases we designed them with the crosswind in mind.  The fifth hole has a HUGE green in consideration of the crosswind, and though the Biarritz green is even larger, I suspect many will find it too difficult in a stiff north wind.  But, it's supposed to be a long and hard par-3.

The 15th and 16th have yet to be built, but you will notice that there is an enormous amount of room to the sides of both holes -- it won't be 25 yards of fairway and five yards of mowed rough and then marram grass like at Birkdale.  And you can be sure we will be thinking about the crosswinds when building the approaches for those holes.

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2008, 11:45:46 AM »
Tom,

Thanks for your reply,

For the 15th and 16th holes are you planning to put an bunker or a rough hazard (grass bunkers as at many Scottish courses) on one side of the green and closely mown fairway on the other side which adds variety. For example - the 10th at NGLA where it is rough/small bunkers on the left/front side of the green and a large area of short grass on the right side. NGLA 18 is also similar. I have used this approach when designing green surrounds which makes the golfer think more as he has more variety of shots to choose from.

Also the 3rd at Brancaster is a great example where the best place to put the ball on the right and then it rolls towards the green - is that similar on many CBM course designs?

I agree that some greens at Birkdale were a bit tight on the side on some holes. But from memory of visiting the Open - the 9th and 14th were cross wind but had large short mowed fairway surrounds as well as a large green. Most pros were actually laying up the 1st green as the long grass hazard on either side of the green were a severe penalty.

I believe a golf course should have one long hard par 3 in its layout like 16th at Carnoustie. Is the 8th at Old Mac to be in the 230 to 250 yard bracket? meaning most will have to take a driver onto the front and then if the flag was at the back a 100ft putt going into a valley to get to the other plateau . If so - wicked! Look forward to see that hole.

Cheers

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2008, 08:37:02 PM »
Ben:

The 8th at Old Macdonald is 215 to the middle of the back half of the green, but only about 160 carry to get onto the front tier.  I would have liked to make it 20 yards longer, but there is a steep drop toward the ocean at the back of the tee.  Our Redan hole (no. 13) will be quite long because it's downwind.

Michael Dugger

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Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2008, 09:01:18 PM »
more images, these from golfdigest



the flags are for Mike Keiser to select from....
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Michael Dugger

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Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2008, 09:15:36 PM »
Our Redan hole (no. 13) will be quite long because it's downwind.

Nice, the architect himself has the holes wrong!!!

Redan is 12
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

John Kirk

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Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2008, 09:25:46 PM »
Whether the architect has trouble remembering which number the Redan is, it was quite clever how he found the slope in the dunes for the golf hole.  It was pretty subtle, just a yard or two of elevation change.

Michael Dugger

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Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2008, 09:31:29 PM »
Whether the architect has trouble remembering which number the Redan is, it was quite clever how he found the slope in the dunes for the golf hole.  It was pretty subtle, just a yard or two of elevation change.

hey there John....you played Tetherow yet?



What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2008, 10:16:29 PM »
MDugger:  Sorry for the slip-up in numbering ... we've re-routed the course a couple of times and the number for the Redan has changed ... it used to be 11 and now it's 12, but I thought it used to be 12 so now it was 13. 

For the most part, we've referred to the holes by name instead of by number for months now, and of course we haven't built them in order, either.  But I really should know which is which, so I don't head the wrong way to the first tee at a grand opening someday.

Michael Dugger

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Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2008, 12:27:20 AM »
MDugger:  Sorry for the slip-up in numbering ... we've re-routed the course a couple of times and the number for the Redan has changed ... it used to be 11 and now it's 12, but I thought it used to be 12 so now it was 13. 

For the most part, we've referred to the holes by name instead of by number for months now, and of course we haven't built them in order, either.  But I really should know which is which, so I don't head the wrong way to the first tee at a grand opening someday.

I'm just givin' you *&#%, Tom, I am sure they all start to get jumbled when you are working on numerous jobs.

I'm really looking forward to 15-17.  15 ought to afford a gorgous backdrop, 16 will make for a cool Alps and 17 "Channel"

In RE: #17.  What is going to separate the two fairways? long grass and scrub???

Also, what is the skinny with your proposed course in Norcal???
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Ben Stephens

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Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2008, 08:54:14 AM »
Tom,

Is the Redan hole 13 going to be a similar direction as shown on the layout diagram? If so then the 2nd will also be in a similar direction or has 11 and 12 changed.

Looks great from the photos.

Maybe the flags could be in navy blue and red in tribute to Macdonald's background - Scottish father and Canadian mother>

Tom_Doak

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Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2008, 10:27:29 AM »
Ben:

The Redan is #12, not #13, as I misspoke earlier.  So it plays south, where #2 plays north.  This may be the first time in years I have hit all four points of the compass with a set of four par-3's ... whoopee!