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John Kavanaugh

From a macro standpoint, does it get any better than the three courses at the Bandon Resort.  I have never been anywhere else where the ball rolls and bounces along during the rain and cold like it hasn't a care in the world.

Rich Goodale

Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2008, 08:55:12 AM »
Yes it does, John.  You must get yourself to Great Britain and Ireland before you are too old to appreciate how much better the olde world is in this regard than even the very best of the newe world copies, such as the Bandon courses.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2008, 09:21:13 AM »
Yes it does, John.  You must get yourself to Great Britain and Ireland before you are too old to appreciate how much better the olde world is in this regard than even the very best of the newe world copies, such as the Bandon courses.

Alrighty then, from a micro perspective - which course of the olde world has the best greens?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2008, 09:27:44 AM »
Rich:

You haven't been to Bandon for a while.  The surface there just keeps getting better and better.  In fact, it's gotten to the point that some of the better greenkeepers in Britain and Ireland are stopping through Bandon on their trip to the GCSAA show to see what they are doing there -- I was at Royal County Down last week and their head man was over to look at Bandon this past winter.

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2008, 09:32:55 AM »
John:

Interestingly, when I have traveled to Ireland and Scotland ALL of the greens were good except for my day at Carnoustie (they were preparing for the British Open and had significantly aerated and sanded the greens ---completely understandable).  I suspect that the weather does not stress the greens nearly as much in those climates as it does in many parts of the States.  

Bart

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2008, 09:38:14 AM »
There's one report that says the links courses of the old world are extremely thatchy.
Rihc, Any truth, that you're able to qualitatively confirm or deny?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Rich Goodale

Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2008, 09:42:48 AM »
Rich:

You haven't been to Bandon for a while.  The surface there just keeps getting better and better.  In fact, it's gotten to the point that some of the better greenkeepers in Britain and Ireland are stopping through Bandon on their trip to the GCSAA show to see what they are doing there -- I was at Royal County Down last week and their head man was over to look at Bandon this past winter.

Very good point, Tom.  The fct that I have not been there for 7-8 years is a real gap in my resume...... :'(

I must admit that I was not responding less to John's overall point (i.e. "best maintained courses") than to his subsidiary one ("...rolls and bounces...").  You have spent a lot of time in the UK in the past few years.  Do any of the Bandon courses approach the wild rolls and bounces that you get normally in GBI?  I'll gladly defer to your knowledge and expereience regarding the quality of maintenance.  Even the best courses in GBI are still littered with mostly minor maintenace flaws, and that is why I love them!

Rich

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2008, 10:40:14 AM »
In terms of pure attention to detail, the best I've ever seen would be Pronghorn. A little over the top for me, but very impressive nonetheless.

In 2000 I was fortunate enough to play The Old Course in early June, about 3-4 weeks before The Open. From a pure playability standpoint, best I've seen.

On the low end, the muni course my Grandfather maintained for 20+ years was as good as you can do with no budget and 3-4 guys on the crew. At least that's the way I remember it and the memories only gets better over time.

My award for maintenance that enhances design goes to the Bandon Courses and Kingsley Club. Both do a great job of melding design and maintenance.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2008, 11:06:59 AM »
For warm season grasses - I nominate Don Mahaffey.
(not because he is a warm season grass specialist - it just happens that is where he is)

I've been afraid of the ball bouncing around from 40 yards out - way more than once...

I've never seen a bermuda course play like Wolf Point does - the closest has been on dormant bermuda - and those are often hard to find with all the overseeding these days

P.S.
Google chrome has an automatic spell check  :)
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Brian Cenci

Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2008, 12:05:38 PM »
As far as public golf courses I think the best I've played is Forest Dunes in Roscommon, MI.  For private clubs Kinloch is top notch.  Not sure what you mean by micro or macro.

-Brian

John Kavanaugh

Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2008, 12:09:18 PM »
Macro is the presentation of the course as a whole.  Micro would be best greens, fairways, tee boxes, bunkers, rough, fescue, etc. etc...

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2008, 12:13:30 PM »
For Micro conditions....it would have to be the resort at Couer D' Alene.  Everything was simply perfect conditions-wise.  And I've never putted on faster greens in my life...thankfully they aren't too undulated.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2008, 04:15:39 PM »
Old Elm in Highland Park, IL

4000 rounds a year on a private men's club does wonders for the greens!
H.P.S.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2008, 04:24:24 PM »
The climate in Chicago pisses grass for breakfast.  Is Old Elm the finest maintained course in Chicago?  I can not recall evidence of a single blade of grass out of place at Butler.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2008, 05:12:26 PM »
A club full of CEO's give the Super an unlimited budget and limited rounds. It makes Butler look like a muni in conditioning.

I'm not saying the course is a beast...but just unreal in conditioning!
H.P.S.

Brian Cenci

Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2008, 05:15:04 PM »
for micro i'd have to say the greens at Forest Dunes are the best of any public course i've ever played.

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2008, 07:22:30 PM »
The climate in Chicago pisses grass for breakfast.  Is Old Elm the finest maintained course in Chicago?  I can not recall evidence of a single blade of grass out of place at Butler.
John, I would agree with you regarding Butler - it's unmatched with regards to conditioning in Chicago. I played Bob O Link just recently and have to say the greens were as nice as I've seen in Chicago but not better than Beverly ;)  Who in the hell would want a steady diet of Butler though?             Jack

John Kavanaugh

Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2008, 07:38:15 PM »

Who in the hell would want a steady diet of Butler though? 

Speaking as a guy who played 18 from 10 fairway I think the course is a perfect test for everyday play.  Since the trees were removed on 7 there is not a hole besides 10 that could not be played quite simply for the rest of any mans life.  Anyone who would not want a steady diet of Butler should check their testicles on York and play the adjacent muni.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2008, 08:36:50 PM »
For the Micro/Macro firm and fast group I woul dhave ot say Huntingdon Valley outside of Philadelphia.

Micro/Macro means the Philadelphia region.


Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2008, 09:34:38 PM »
Micro Nomination Tees:

Philmont CC North

They are cut as tight as most greens only they are firmer.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2008, 09:41:46 PM »
Old Elm in Highland Park, IL

4000 rounds a year on a private men's club does wonders for the greens!

i know courses like Canyata get even less play than this, but does anyone know of any "normal"  clubs that get less than 4000 rounds a year?  conservatively estimating 200 days of play a year means the course only averages 20 rounds a day!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Bruce Leland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2008, 10:17:21 PM »
Old Elm in Highland Park, IL

4000 rounds a year on a private men's club does wonders for the greens!

i know courses like Canyata get even less play than this, but does anyone know of any "normal"  clubs that get less than 4000 rounds a year?  conservatively estimating 200 days of play a year means the course only averages 20 rounds a day!
Don't know if it qualifies as "normal" but I was told that Silver Leaf at DC Ranch only gets 1,000 rounds a year.
"The mystique of Muirfield lingers on. So does the memory of Carnoustie's foreboding. So does the scenic wonder of Turnberry and the haunting incredibility of Prestwick, and the pleasant deception of Troon. But put them altogether and St. Andrew's can play their low ball for atmosphere." Dan Jenkins

Ryan Farrow

Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2008, 02:20:35 AM »
Beating a dead horse here, but the smoothest greens you will ever play on is at Oakmont Country Club.

I will also give it the nod for the greenest, firm and fast golf course in the world.

TX Golf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2008, 02:47:08 AM »
Not to go off on a tangent here.... but why does everyone keep ripping on Poa Annua greens. It seems like many people here (and across the country) would seem to nominate Oakmont as having the best greens on the planet, while at the same time the greens are extremely old Poa Annua. Why is it that we criticize this grass when it can perform at this level??

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Maintained Courses, World Wide - Macro/Micro Considerations.
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2008, 03:34:16 AM »
In the old days, well, my old days, the best greens I had ever experienced were Hoylake and Burnham.  It was a revelation to play well conditioned links greens after growing up on bent, parkland greens.  There was simply no comparison.  Unfortunately, during my time playing links these past 17 or 18 years I have witnessed a deterioration in the greens, the same could be said for parkland/heathland courses as well.  It is very rare I see greens in great shape these days and hands down the best I have seen regardless of style of course these recent years is Nairn.   The U of M greens I played last spring were not far behind and in much better condition in terms of appropriate speed & firmness than the courses I saw in Philly on the same trip. 

I am not that fussed about fairways so long as they roll.  Honestly, from my perspective given that I am not so worried about lovely lies on the fairway, the best courses for kick and roll are usually the 2nd & 3rd links such as North Wales and Pennard, plus the odd inland course like Kington.  In other words, those with small budgets and no water. 

I don't care at all about tees.  It wouldn't bother me if I hit off dirt.

The best maintained rough I ever experienced was Gullane #1 - again, going back many, many years.  It was a wonderful biscuit brown colour.  Very long and whispy, extremely easy to find a ball, but oh so hard to control a recovery from. 

In terms of best macro presentation (a combination of all factors) in recent years, I would probably go with Pinehurst.  Though, my recent outing at St Georges Hill was quite impressive.  Everything as it should be without getting too carried away.  I would also throw in Kington as a contender for this category.  It is always in good nick with the fairways rolling and wide, greens true and the ale at cellar temp. 

Ciao

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