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Alfonso Erhardt

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I am researching on Colt (and Simpson's) work in Madrid and have been able to review the online archives of American Golfer and Golf Illustrated in the USGA website. I have found some information but not much.

I was wondering if there are any other sources of information I might have access to in order to track them down. These magazines are obviously focused in America, but I was wondering if anything similar exists that covers Europe similary - maybe the UK version of Golf Illustrated? Is that online or in paper available for public consultation.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Historical sources of information about golf in continental Europe
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2008, 05:05:13 AM »
I wish I could help, but I tend to find that I learn more about golf courses in Britain from our friends in the USA and Australia who seem to have better access to information than we have - unless you are a member of the R&A and have access to their library.

Rich Goodale

Re: Historical sources of information about golf in continental Europe
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2008, 05:54:12 AM »
Mark

Any thoughts on why the R&A isn't digitising its archives and making them available to researchers?  Or is it doing such and not telling us?  Maybe we should get Tom Paul and his friends at the USGA to help them out if they are short of inclination, time and/or cash.

Rich

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Historical sources of information about golf in continental Europe
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2008, 06:07:45 AM »
Richard

I am not a great supporter of the R&A, but I must give credit where credit is due and their archive section has been of great help and assistance to me over the last year or so.  Received many interesting scraps of information which were of great interest to me in my search through the history of golf in the 19th Century.

Information is money and the R&A are known to like it, but that should not take away the excellent service I have received from their archives.

Paul_Turner

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Re: Historical sources of information about golf in continental Europe
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2008, 07:57:57 AM »
Rich

The R&A are next to useless when it comes to help of this nature...they're a closed shop.

USGA much better.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Rich Goodale

Re: Historical sources of information about golf in continental Europe
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2008, 08:52:57 AM »
Paul

That's why I suggest that we sic Tom Paul on them.

Rich

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Historical sources of information about golf in continental Europe
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2008, 09:26:49 AM »
Tom kindly introduced me to a USGA official in 2005, when they were setting up their on-line service. I mentioned the possibility of a link to the R&A and they had already thought of it. Maybe in time.

I have sometimes had excellent service from the R&A and at other times they don't even respond.

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Historical sources of information about golf in continental Europe
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2008, 09:35:48 AM »
Alfonso

I think I'd look to see what European papers have digitized archives. I believe, for instance, The Scotsman and The Times of London allow you to search the archives by computer for a fee. I'd also check the NY Times digitized archives.

Joe Bausch has been doing some wonderful digging through the files of Philadelphia papers and has uncovered some fascinating information that includes golf in Europe. I'd also suggest contacting the older clubs directly.

Regards,

Anthony

TEPaul

Re: Historical sources of information about golf in continental Europe
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2008, 09:43:46 AM »
Alfonso, MarkR, Rich, Melvyn and PaulT:

Since this USGA Architecture Archive idea began about four years ago, it's been quite an interesting journey, at least for me (and a few of my friends) and I'm not just talking about the identification and discovering of the potential Mother Lode of old and interesting information that is and may be out there PIECEMEAL here and there in nooks and crannies all around the world, certainly including Continental Europe, although that part has been an interesting journey too. Other than the piecemeal stuff that is generally in and around clubs, there is stuff out there in collections of one form of disorganization or another, most of it virtually unknown except to its possessors. And then there are the periodicals and books and most certainly the architectural plans and particularly the photographs, including the always fascinating and useful aerials. Going after this stuff is like some massive archaeological journey with no particular specific locations in mind or identified. The best way to get effective with that is good old fashioned personal net-working and for that a website like this one could not be better, but as we see on here even that has its drawbacks and obstacles. I think the reason for that is on a site like this one information is a form of currency and people tend to get proprietary with this kind of information “currency” and they probably do that for their own personal agendas such as trying to make a name for themselves in this world of golf course architecture, certainly including research.

That's just a part of it. The other part is the organizational structure to effectively monitor the sweeping up, organizing, cataloguing, appraising, properly preserving, copyright checking etc of all this information. After that, once you find it and identify and analyze its importance, you have to figure out how best to make it available. Of course there is always the traditional “once place” museum and research center structure but today we are so fortunate to have digitizing and the INTERNET, because its information dissemination is more effective by a factor of many thousands compared to the method before the Internet.

All of this takes MONEY and “man-power” time. Who’s going to pay for all this and sweep it into some central respository and then most effectively dissemination that lode of information in the most educational and useful way including the Internet?

Well, I guess we think the USGA will and they have most certainly made the initial effort and are on track to do it but how fast and how comprehensively we can’t tell yet.

There is also the question of what they will concentrate on, at least initially. It looks like they will concentrate on American golf architecture and its history, at least at first. We did make the suggestion in the beginning that they should go world-wide because nobody else seems to be doing it.

I feel there is and always has been a certain dynamic between the R&A and the USGA and it goes back over a hundred years. I’d call it the dynamic of proprietariness on the one hand and the spirit of unity on the other hand. Right now I think they are more on the side of the spirit of unity.

But if the R&A or anyone close to the R&A wants the USGA to help out with the R&A’s historic architectural material, in my opinion, the R&A should come to the USGA with a really good proposal on how to do that because I really doubt the USGA is interested in being asked to do it all for them and having to pay for it too. And why should they other than for the greater good of architecture world-wide? I think if this is going to work well in the future there will need to be a real collaborative effort in both man-power and financial resources up and down the latter and all around the world. And to do that there will need to be someone to really lead the entire thing. That’s not me---I’m sort of a basic concept guy who has some problems following through on the details on down the line. Plus there’s a lot of the nitty gritty Internet structure stuff I don’t understand very well. That's the good news with the USGA---they have people who are good at that and do it for them.

And if all this interesting information is going to be digitized and INTERNET disseminated, as you know it really doesn’t matter from whose website it comes---frankly it can probably all be massively Hyperlinked anyway into menu structures and such, but even that takes a lot of organization and collaboration and cooperation, and "man-power" time and money. The world wide communication and information network really doesn’t even look at that or care about it anything like they way we once did when material was just reposited in some single place.

So make some suggestions if you want but try to make them really sensible and realistic in the over-all if they’re ever to be utilized and become effective. In the past I’ve been kind of surprised by the naivete on something like this from people I would not have expected to be naïve.

It’s been quite a journey so far, even if it’s probably not far down the road in the grand scheme of things and I do wonder where it will go from here and where it will end up someday. But I firmly believe it is definitely something that should be done somehow and really comprehensively. I think it is totally necessary for the future of golf and golf architecture.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 09:51:10 AM by TEPaul »

Richard Pennell

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Re: Historical sources of information about golf in continental Europe
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2008, 09:57:54 AM »
Alfonso

It was a pleasure to meet you and your son the other day. I hope you enjoyed playing here and the other courses lived up to expectations - I'm sure they did! I would love to hear some opinions of the various courses once the dust has settled.

There is a Tom Simpson society that is run by a Liphook member, I believe his name is Jess Stiles, and the link to the contact info is below. Might be able to help.

http://www.tomsimpson.org.uk/contactus.htm 

Regards

Richard (NZGC)
"The rules committee of the Royal and Ancient are yesterday's men, Jeeves. They simply have to face up to the modern world" Bertie Wooster

TEPaul

Re: Historical sources of information about golf in continental Europe
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2008, 10:00:03 AM »
AnthonyP is right---eg there will need to be a lot of people like Philadelphia's Joe Bausch to spend the long hours or grunt work time to find and go through all this stuff. There are certainly others doing and trying to do this kind of thing I'm aware of around the world.

It really is sort of like good old fashioned archaeology--long hours of digging and then BOOM you find something so cool it inspires you to begin the long hours of digging again.

With text and such (histories and articles) pay specific attention to how the author is explaining something---eg does it look like he's just interpreting some event or item or does he write about it in such a way that you're pretty sure he has something right in front of him you can search for. Quotes are really important for that. Then you have to figure out if he's just quoting something from someone who was just interpreting something before him. Original rumors have a pretty interesting way of seeming to turn in facts down the line. Even finding out when and by whom rumors (non factual items) began is pretty interesting too.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 10:02:23 AM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Historical sources of information about golf in continental Europe
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2008, 10:16:09 AM »
Alfonso
Where are you based?

To my knowledge the R & A does not have collection of magazines and books like the USGA, and the R & A is a private club. A very private club.

Golf Illustrated (UK version) would be a good place to start. The USGA has it and I think the Ralph Miller library in LA may have it too. I'm pretty certain the Library system of London has it as well.

I believe there was a French and Spanish Golf magazine back then although I'm not sure when they began. Some major Euro libraries may have those magazines.

Tony' suggestion about newspapers is a good one. I'm not sure what the major newspaper in Spain was at the time.

There weren't that many courses in Madrid in those days....I'd guess less than a handful. You might try contacting them directly.

Is there any particular information you are looking for?

TEPaul

Re: Historical sources of information about golf in continental Europe
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2008, 10:29:04 AM »
Alfonso:

My suggestion if you are researching Colt and Simpson's work at a club or a few, by all means go right to the club first and try to determine what all they have about Colt and Simpson with their own course or otherwise. Newspapers and magazines and such surely can help but do yourself a favor and go directly to the source first and that's the golf club(s) and their Colt and Simpson architecture.

Or even if you want some help with how to go about approaching clubs, IM some of us---we would be glad to help in any way we can as many of us have done this kind of thing before and are doing it now.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 10:31:41 AM by TEPaul »

Alfonso Erhardt

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Re: Historical sources of information about golf in continental Europe
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2008, 10:58:13 AM »
Tom Paul,

I am only doing the research about one club (Puerta de Hierro) and I am already in direct contact with the club managers. The club has not placed much attention to its archives in the past (and they also are missing some parts due to the Spanish Civil War - which had a big battle just around the course). I am looking for other publications to complete (not much literature about golf in Spain back then, with only 3-4 courses in play).

Tom MacWood,

I am based in Madrid. I am a member of Puerta de Hierro and am trying to reconstruct the history of its golf courses (originally Colt and Simpson, with later addition by John Harris -  9 holes -  and recent upgrading/new layout by Kyle Phillips).

I have already purchased old aerial photographs from the Spanish Aviation covering every decade from 1920 to 2008. The club is getting the dust out of its archives - which are stored somewhere else - so I can go through them. Since I don't know what the archives will have I am also looking for additional sources of information - magazines, etc.

I will do as you say and check the UK version of Golf Illustrated and see what I can find and also the French-Spanish old version of that golf magazine. I am also checking the newspapers in Spain, but digitalization is nowhere near where it is in UK or US - so its a much lengthier process.

Richard,

Was a pleasure meeting you and we did love Woking, West Sussex and especially Swinley Forest. We had a great time. Thanks for the Simpson society contact - I have already told them that Simpson's involvement was not in 1938 - as there was war in Spain then.....
 

Thomas MacWood

Re: Historical sources of information about golf in continental Europe
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2008, 11:02:43 AM »
Alfonso
I believe Simpson came in after WWII to restore the course. I'll see what I may have on PdH.

Alfonso Erhardt

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Re: Historical sources of information about golf in continental Europe
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2008, 11:28:49 AM »
Tom,

Thanks for that. I would really appreciate it. I will let you know what I am able to gather at the PH archive.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Historical sources of information about golf in continental Europe
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2008, 12:23:16 PM »
Alfonso, I take it you have Colt and Alison's Some Essays on Golf-Course Architecture, in which there is a letter of Aug 1919 from Sr Duque de Alba to Colt about Puerto de Huero (as it is spelt here).

Thomas MacWood

Re: Historical sources of information about golf in continental Europe
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2008, 12:56:17 PM »
Alfonso
Send me your email address at thomas.macwood@sbcglobal.net.

Alfonso Erhardt

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Re: Historical sources of information about golf in continental Europe
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2008, 01:00:58 PM »
Mark,

Thanks for that. Yes, I have seen the letter. The book also has a picture of the tee of the 4th.  I have also gathered found some pictures in the USGA website, but not much.



Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Historical sources of information about golf in continental Europe
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2008, 07:54:20 AM »
Alfonso, I should be grateful if you would e-mail me, too, please. I should like to pick your brains. markrowlinson@btopenworld.com

Many thanks, Mark.

Rich Goodale

Re: Historical sources of information about golf in continental Europe
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2008, 08:29:40 AM »
Alfonso

Royal Dornoch Golf Club has a set of bound copies of Golf Illustrated (UK version) due to the fact that their long time secretary John Sutherland, was one of the magazine's main contributors.  I am sure you would be allowed access to these copies if you can find your way to Dornoch and ask politely beforehand.  Please let me know if you need any more information and/or help.

Rich

Alfonso Erhardt

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Re: Historical sources of information about golf in continental Europe
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2008, 08:50:33 AM »
Richard,

Thank you for the information. I will note it down. I now have an official excuse to get up there!!!!

Alfonso Erhardt

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Re: Historical sources of information about golf in continental Europe
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2008, 03:50:19 AM »
All,

Just to add on the information sources, the Italian Olympic Committee has a digital library with an Italian Golf magazine covering years 1934-1935.  The link is emeroteca.coni.it

Regards,

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