The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"

[Sam Morrow]

Historically Jewish clubs in the Philadelphia area

Philmont / Philly

Woodcrest / South  Jersey

Was Huntingdon Valley ever predominately Jewish? I know at one time the neighborhood had a healthy Jewish population. 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Sam,

HV is far from being or having been a Jewish club.  Philmont and Ashbourne NLE are/were the Jewish clubs in that area.

Archie,

Philmont is not the only Jewish cliub on the other side of the Delaware River.  Green Valley, White Manor, Radnor Valley, Meadowlands, Warrington NLE and Ashbourne NLE are/were the others in the Philly 'burbs. Locust Valley in Allentown, Berkleigh near Reading and Brandywine in Wilmington are/were others.

[Sam Morrow]

Sam,

HV is far from being or having been a Jewish club.  Philmont and Ashbourne NLE are/were the Jewish clubs in that area.

Archie,

Philmont is not the only Jewish cliub on the other side of the Delaware River.  Green Valley, White Manor, Radnor Valley, Meadowlands, Warrington NLE and Ashbourne NLE are/were the others in the Philly 'burbs. Loscust Valley in Allentown, Berkleigh near Reading and Brandywine in Wilmington are/were others.

Thanks Steve. Talking to family in that area they lived for many years in the HV area and said there was a very large Jewish population but none of my relatives up there play.

[Adam Warren]

Haven't looked at the entire thread, and haven't played the course, but here in the Louisville metro area there is one "historically Jewish club."  Standard Country Club has been dying a slow death.  It was recently purchased by one of the Jewish orgainizations in the city and is renamed to the Standard Club.  There has been mention of shutting down clubhouse operations and only operating the golf course and pro shop.  I have heard its a nice course, but haven't and probably won't ever make it out there.  Maybe it will be public before they eventually decide to shut the doors.

Adam SCC used to be located at the old River Run CC until 1950s. River Run was of course the original site of LCC and is now itself defunct.

Are you referring to the little course that is at the corner of River Road and Zorn Ave. and is now a dog park/walking park/cross country park?

[Mike Schott]

After teething problems at an earlier site in Redford (Redford CC), it is thought the club insisted Ross invest more personal time on the Franklin Hills project. Among the Jewish community, Franklin Hills is well known because the club is a direct descendant of the Phoenix Club which was a Jewish social club established in 1872.  By 1905 the club was on its third city premises and desired to have a country club to compliment its city club.  Thus Redford CC (later a city of Detroit municipal called Rogell then privately owned as New Rogell and now closed) was born as a 9 holer designed by Tom Bendelow.  Not ten years later, in 1924ish, Donald Ross was hired to build nine additional holes and convert the sand greens to grass greens.  It was quickly realized that the land hard on the Rouge River was unsuitable for ideal golf (the drainage issues were never resolved).  Additionally, long closed Edgewater (amusement) Park was slated to be opened directly across the street from Redford CC, thus spoiling the country appeal of the club.  Consequently, a new site in Franklin, some 20 miles northwest of Detroit, was selected as optimal land to build Franklin Hills, which was to open in 1927. While vibrant, Frankiln Hills is tucked away in a secluded area and many Detroiters don't know of its existence. 

Ciao

Not all that secluded. FH is off of two fairly busy main roads, Inkster and 13 Mile Rd so thousands of cars drive past it daily. The club is certainly low key but you can see much of the course from Inkster Rd and the entrance off of that road. But I'm sure that most Detroiter's haven't heard of it, at least in contrast to other area Ross courses like Oakland Hills and Detroit Golf Club.

Speaking of the old Phoenix/Redford/Rogell course, it's of course NLE but nothing has been done yet by the group that purchased it from the church. The alluring land with it's valleys sits vacant.

[Gib_Papazian]

Not to be a shit disturber, but there are a very few strictly WASP or Jewish enclaves here - nothing like the Midwest and East, where everyone seems far more focused on religions and nationalities than out West. Lake Merced used to be a "Jewish Club" when I was growing up, but it is now a mixed bag of Jews, Asians and a few assorted Christians. Olympic was historically an Irish/Italian Catholic Jesuit club, but nobody really cares  what you are anymore.

Peninsula (Orig Beresford CC) was founded by pissed off Jews who could not get into either SF or Olympic, so they lured Donald Ross out to one-up the Gentiles, but it stopped being a Jewish club long before my time. It is just my impression that the further East you venture, the more willing people are to label each other.

My question is this: As a general rule, in the Midwest or East, is it tougher for a gentile to get into a Jewish club, or the other way around?



    

[John Keenan]

Gib

I have heard that same story about Jews unable to get into SF or Olympic but in this case  they started Lake Merced not Peninsula. No idea if it is true.

FYI  growing up as an Irish Catholic school boy in San Francisco we were told the Olympic club was started because they would not allow Irish in SF Golf club. No idea if there is any truth or just urban myth

John

[Gib_Papazian]

John,

There is a little bit of truth and a little bit of legend there. Olympic was founded in 1860 as a male-only athletic club. We did not have a golf course until the early 20's - with 36 holes superimposed atop the old Lakeside CC. We pre-date SFGC by many years.

The club was thinking about golf before the Great War - and even brought Raynor out to design his "West Coast Lido;" following the Armistice, there was enough interest (and land) to build 36 holes, so the Raynor plans sit on our wall, sticking its tongue out at me every time I walk to my locker.

To the best of my knowledge, there are still no Jews, Blacks or even Armenians  at SFGC - although there might be Catholics.   

[David_Tepper]

"We pre-date SFGC by many years."

Gib -

Are you sure about that? My understanding is the group that built the original golf holes at the Presidio (circa 1895) became the SFGC at  its present location (which pre-dates the original Lakeside course) with an interlude at a NLE course in the Ingleside area in the early 1900's.

The original Lakeside course was built around 1917 and acquired by the Olympic Club not too long thereafter. SFGC was in its present location before then.

But I could be wrong about that!

DT     

[John Keenan]

Gib

As with most stories a little bit of truth and a little bit of myth

On SFGC Ms Rice would eliminate one of your categories. 

John

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gib,

Is that Raynor schematic available in print ?

Can you post it ?


There is a little bit of truth and a little bit of legend there. Olympic was founded in 1860 as a male-only athletic club. We did not have a golf course until the early 20's - with 36 holes superimposed atop the old Lakeside CC. We pre-date SFGC by many years.

The club was thinking about golf before the Great War - and even brought Raynor out to design his "West Coast Lido;" following the Armistice, there was enough interest (and land) to build 36 holes, so the Raynor plans sit on our wall, sticking its tongue out at me every time I walk to my locker.

To the best of my knowledge, there are still no Jews, Blacks or even Armenians  at SFGC - although there might be Catholics.   

[JMEvensky]

Gib

As with most stories a little bit of truth and a little bit of myth

On SFGC Ms Rice would eliminate one of your categories. 

John

Condaleeza Rice is Armenian?

[John Keenan]

I think so 

[Gib_Papazian]

David,

I am aware of the different permutations of SFGC - I was referring to the the fact we date back to 1860.

[Jim Nugent]

The club was thinking about golf before the Great War - and even brought Raynor out to design his "West Coast Lido;" following the Armistice, there was enough interest (and land) to build 36 holes, so the Raynor plans sit on our wall, sticking its tongue out at me every time I walk to my locker.
 

I would love to learn more about Raynor's designs.  Same location as current courses?  The typical collection of Raynor templates?  Thoughts on how the courses would have turned out? 

And also, why didn't the club follow through on Raynor's plans -- was it because Raynor died before he could put them on the ground? 

[David_Tepper]

Gib -

Sorry, I thought you were referring to the date that the OC acquired the Lakeside GC vs. the formation of the SFGC. 

DT

[David_Tepper]

"I would love to learn more about Raynor's designs.  Same location as current courses?"

Jim N. -

If I am reading the OC club history correctly (and Gib will let us know if I am not ), the design Raynor proposed was for a renovation of the original Wilfred Reid 18-holes for the Lakeside GC. Rather than do that, the OC acquired more adjacent property in the early 1920's and decided to build two new courses, pretty much plowing under the Wilfred Reid course.

I do not know if Raynor was contacted regarding the design of the two new courses, which are attributed to Sam Whiting & Willie Watson.

DT   

[Nigel Islam]

Haven't looked at the entire thread, and haven't played the course, but here in the Louisville metro area there is one "historically Jewish club."  Standard Country Club has been dying a slow death.  It was recently purchased by one of the Jewish orgainizations in the city and is renamed to the Standard Club.  There has been mention of shutting down clubhouse operations and only operating the golf course and pro shop.  I have heard its a nice course, but haven't and probably won't ever make it out there.  Maybe it will be public before they eventually decide to shut the doors.

Adam SCC used to be located at the old River Run CC until 1950s. River Run was of course the original site of LCC and is now itself defunct.

Are you referring to the little course that is at the corner of River Road and Zorn Ave. and is now a dog park/walking park/cross country park?

Yes that was originally the LCC

[Tim Martin]

Woodbridge CC in Woodbridge Connecticut was built as a Jewish club in 1938. Orrin Smith was the architect and it operated through 2008 until the debt load forced a sale to the town. Billy Casper Golf now runs the facility for the town although it has been a money loser the last couple of years and it's fate going forward is uncertain.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Woodbridge CC in Woodbridge Connecticut was built as a Jewish club in 1938. Orrin Smith was the architect and it operated through 2008 until the debt load forced a sale to the town. Billy Casper Golf now runs the facility for the town although it has been a money loser the last couple of years and it's fate going forward is uncertain.

Tim,

If it was built in 1938 how did it incur such debt that it went under in 2008 ?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pat,

if I remember correctly, Woodbridge spent a lot on their club house and was sold to the town for $6.9 million in 2009.

http://www.woodbridgect.org/wnews/?FeedID=352

[Jeff_Stettner]

Sadly, St. Louis is still trapped in a stunning time warp, with 3 clubs that are essentially Jewish free, one club that is completely Jewish and a historically second Jewish club that has become more integrated. Of course, this is the town that had a club reject the Busch Family, leading to the construction of another club in the 1920's. In more recent times, AT&T packed up and left the town for Dallas (via San Antonio) partly because the CEO was rejected from the golf club he preferred in STL. Coming from the bay area, I didn't realize how deep the roots still run on both sides of the divide. It's really quite sad and it is seriously hurting the regions ability to stay competitive in terms of attracting business infrastructure. 

[Gib_Papazian]

David,

You are correct, the Raynor plans were to be superimposed atop the Wilfred Reid Lakeside course. Those familiar with The Evangelist know the only "interview" Raynor ever gave was to The Olympian magazine - the subject of which was his design for a "West Coast Lido."

I'm still not clear on why our club did not simply build the Raynor plans after WW1 ended and then hire another architect to lay out a 2nd golf course if that was the objective. The original Lido was still operating at full rip on the south shore of L.I. and it was considered (I'm pulling this out of my memory banks) one of the top courses in America with PV, NGLA and Timber Point.

I've never been able to orient the Raynor plans in terms of our property, but likely the layout wandered extensively along the water in the same way our original Pacific Links course was routed along the dunes and bluffs below the shelf where the Cliffs Course is today. Perhaps Olympic's Lido would have slid into the ocean just as parts of the original version did. Maybe so, maybe not.

What is still completely unexplainable is when the decision was made to remodel the current Ocean Course, we did not consider using the Raynor plans, sitting there gathering dust in the Historian's closet. And then when we decided to hire Bill Love to rethink the golf course again - those same plans had been framed and were hanging prominently on the wall in our locker room.

How many chances do you get to exhume the spirit of a Golden Age genius from the grave and literally resurrect and build his masterpiece? Our club VP arranged an informal meeting with several members of the Board (and Green Chairman) to give me an opportunity to pitch the idea of building the Raynor plans, but our GC at the time didn't know a Redan from a ball washer and I might as well have been speaking in Swahili.

By contrast, Sequoyah CC was smart enough to let Doug Nickels sympathetically adapt Chandler Egan's wonderful remodeling plans - proposed in the early 1930s, but never completed. Ironically, there is evidence that Raynor also drew up some plans for the club during one of his two trips through the Bay Area, but my research and observations conclude they were drastically modified during construction.

Alas, it is too late and unless I somehow hit the Lotto, purchase some coastal acreage and build it myself, those plans will still be sitting on that damned wall after I take my last divot. The final hope was Old Mac, but Uncle George, Doak and Urbina could not make a strict Lido reprise fit - though I can hardly whine about having an updated NGLA on the West Coast.

In the end, for Olympic, ignoring the Raynor plans was a terrible, once in a millennium lost opportunity; I still believe it was the exact right idea, but at the wrong time - and with the wrong people turning the dials and pulling the levers. If we could somehow reset the clock with the Green Chairs and committees the last few years, I believe the outcome might have been very different.

But then again, if a West Coast Lido already existed at Olympic, Mike Keiser probably would not have moved forward with the idea of Old Macdonald. In the end, a showcase for CB and Raynor's template holes are probably best on a public course to educate the "retail golfers," but it sure would have been nice not to be forced to get on an airplane every time I want to revisit the past.          

Off topic, but I just looked on Amazon and cannot believe used copies of the book are going for $375 and up, new ones well north of $1,000. I gave away at least a half dozen of them to friends . . . . . wish I had known The Evangelist would become a collectors item. 

  

[Gib_Papazian]

Jeff,

I was surprised when you decided to move to St. Louis and recall warning you it would be a wicked culture shock. Going from the Oakland Hills to Emory - that we both know is hanging on the outer edge of the left wing - and then to live in St. Louis struck me as a form of insanity. You're a smart kid (not a kid anymore actually) who made it work, but you had to know going in that people on the east side of the Rockies are hyper-aware of race and religion compared to home base.

It seems odd, but Chicago is still the most segregated place I've ever been - even more than NYC. I'm told St. Louis is pretty much the same way. Heck, when I visit store locations with customers in Chicago, the surrounding neighborhoods are usually overwhelmingly one thing.

"Over der, ya see, that where all the Pollocks live. This one is all Italians, go down about three miles and all the Indians live there."

Really, it's nuts when you think about it, but move into the wrong neighborhood there for your ethnicity or religion and people actually, really and truly give a shit. Same goes for much of the Upper Atlantic Seaboard. It seems bizarro world to us, because hardly anybody gives it a thought here, although most of my Jewish friends introduce themselves name first - and then work into the conversation somehow that they are Jewish . . . . like the idiot Gentile couldn't figure out Seth Rosenberg goes to Temple without the Star of David around his neck.      

There was once terrible bigotry against Armenians in Fresno - so much so that until the late 1970's Sunnyside CC actively barred admittance to anybody with an "ian" at the end of their name. Lots of us have white bread sounding surnames, changed several generations back to avoid being stigmatized. Even when I was a kid, Armenians in the central valley were referred to a "Fresno Indians," but like everything else in California, most all of that went away too.

The nice thing about being Armenian is that nobody but radical Muslims (since we are essentially 100% Christian) have a bone to pick with us. Jews act like we're first counsins - which we kinda are - and garden variety honkeys don't know enough about us to form a prejudice.      

[Jud_T]

Gib,

I have no idea what you're talking about.  Aside from that pesky reverse circumcision clause, I never noticed the least bit of segregation among the old line Chicago clubs.