[Mike Mosely]

So I'll be going to the Open and the Ryder Cup this year, but know little about torrey and Valhalla.

I hear that torrey polarizes people...some love it as a public course in a beautiful setting, but a merely average architectural pedigree made worse by renovations.  I know Geoff Shackelford wasn't thrilled with torrey's changes.

What about Valahhla?  Are there any great holes?  The par-5s maybe?  WHat about the par-3s?  What do these courses do RIGHT?  What works?  What do they do wrong and might want to fix?

[Michael Dugger]

Anyone daring enough to address this question???

I am looking forward to seeing whatever changes Nicklaus apparently made to Valhalla since it last hosted a big tournament.  

As far as Torrey....for some reason whenever the PGA tour comes to San Diego I don't seem to find myself at home on Sunday to watch the final round.  

But I watch the AT & T, or whatever they are calling the event at Pebble Beach, gleefully.

I am riveted by the Nissan or whatever it is they call the tourney at Riviera.

[Mike Mosely]

Michael am I to take it that there is NOTHING that you think is good about these courses?

Anything?  Beuhler?  Beuhler?  Beuhler?

"...uh, he's sick..."

[Kalen Braley]

Paging Barney....paging Barney....

He'll tell you like it is at Torrey..

[Greg Krueger]

I don't see how anyone can hate Torrey Pines. Talk about a
unbelievable piece of property! Now I have not played it 20 years, so I can't speak to the changes that have been made,
but I think it will be a super US Open for Eldrick!

I walked Valhalla for 2 days during the PGA that Mark Brooks
won, very demanding Nicklaus course, they won't shoot 20 under. Is it great? NO. But a very good test.

One thing I do like about both courses are reachable par 5
18th holes, should be exciting!

[Jon Spaulding]

I've played TP a number of times, and Valhalla in mid-2006, before the changes.

Mike, you'll not see anything at TP that will knock your socks off from a design or artistic standpoint. Not that it ever did, but the "old" version had a bit more character and I personally liked it better. The new version has more bunkers, whiter sand, bigger/lamer greens, is very long and places a very high demand on ball striking. Under open conditions this will just all be magnified. Pete L and David to the white courtesy phone......

Nick Pozaric posted some photos of the changes made @ Valhalla a few months ago. I thought Valhalla was impressive beforehand. Having said that, I wil admit an affinity for the mid-80's Nicklaus "strip club" designs that I've played. Paging Tom "stripper pole" Huckaby....

A few weak holes, but otherwise very solid from a tournament standpoint. From a GCA.com standpoint, it would get slaughtered. The first three par 5's were interesting, but I think #2 would be played as a par 4. #7 has a much publicized alternate fairway. I hope they leave #10 a par 5 as that was a nice hole. #16 is one of the more difficult long par 4's I've ever seen...and they lengthened it! The stretch from 14-17 should make for some great matches. #18 is probably familiar to most, but somewhat of a letdown after the holes preceding it; hopefully they made a few changes there. I have a number of "before" photos if anyone cares to see them.

[Art Roselle]

I cannot really comment on Torrey, but I think Valhalla is better than a lot of people think.  I don't know what the opinions are on this site, but Valhalla seems to get criticized by many because 1) people have decided that they don't like Nicklaus courses 2) there are power lines running through part of it, 3) the clubhouse is sort of ugly, 4) the PGA owns it, 5) the 13th green is an island on a pile of rocks (as Tom Doak wrote, "Jack at his innovative worst"), 6) the pros did not like the 18th green and 7) Mark Brooks won the first tournament there, instead of some bigger name.  None of those seem like good reasons, except maybe #5.  The last one amuses me the most and I thought it was funny to see how much more respected the course seemed to become after Tiger won there (instead of Mark Brooks).

I think the renovation work had some positives and some negatives.  In the never ending quest for length, they added some tees which are silly and would ruin the hole for any mere mortal (but nobody plays from back there, so I guess it is ok).  I think the new #6 is worse, where they moved the green back 100 yards from the edge of the ravine and turned an interesting and pretty 3-wood/7-iron hole into a less interesting 3-wood/3-wood slog.  The par 5 7th is now better, since they kept the alternate fairway and (hopefully) made it relevant even for the best players.  In the last two PGAs, they put hospitality tents on the left fairway.

This is the before version, but you can at least see the left fairway option


The par three #8 had a green that was too severe before and had a limited number of pin options.  For some reason, when they rebuilt it, they made it even more severe and I have heard they are going back and reworking it again.  This seems to be a problem of what to do with a shortish par 3, if all you are worried about is PGA scoring.  In order to keep it from being a birdie-fest, they go haywire on the green and often mess up the hole.

18 got a lot of criticism and I think the green is a little overdone, but I also think that the charm of that hole is lost on a tour pro (or a spectator watching a tour pro).  The alternate fairway option for the 2nd shot is a fun design, but it is totally irrelevant to guys who can hit 4-iron over the green.  For me, depending on the hole location, it may make sense to play it to either side, which I think makes it an interesting and fun hole.

#18 - the alternate fairway option here is on the second shot


In general, I think it is quite a good course.  It is hard, but if you play from the appropriate tees, it is generally very fun and playable.  In my opinion, the best holes are 2, 3, 4, 7, 9, 10, 14, 17 and 18.  The worst are 6(new), 12 and 13.

[Gary Slatter]

IMHO Both courses are unfortunate tournament locations.

[David Stamm]

 Pete L and David to the white courtesy phone......

 

I can't speak for Pete, but I agree pretty much agree with Jon on all counts. Torrey South was never a great course to begin with, but I liked the old version more. Having said that, the North is a better course from an architectural standpoint (not that it is a marvel in this respect) and more fun. The land is more interesting as well. Most locals in the area that have played both courses many times will agree with this. So much more could have been done with the property......

[Mike Mosely]

David and Art, OK, but why are they not good tourney venues?  Not many options?  Did the character get bulldozed out of the greens?

Art, nice analysis.  How are are the greens at valhalla?

[David Stamm]

David and Art, OK, but why are they not good tourney venues?  Not many options?  Did the character get bulldozed out of the greens?

Art, nice analysis.  How are are the greens at valhalla?

Mike, TP is a very good VENUE. It can accomodate all the prerequisite corporate tents by putting them on the North course. It will also be used for VIP parking and the 10th will be used for the range. The course does not have much a strategical element. The challenge will be the length of the rough and very fast greens. Typical USGA set up. The greens for the most part never had that much interest, so redoing them was not that big of a deal. Much of the criticism stems form the "look" of the course. The stark white sand and  resorty look just looks out of place. It reminds one somewhat of Trump National to the north, although not nearly as bad as that debacle. There was some subtle little mounds on some of the fw's, such as on the 18th. But this was bulldozed away because they wanted to make it a long par 4 finisher. They then changed there minds because they suddenly realized after doing this that they were going to be limited by pin placements since most of the green is fronted by a pond. So now it's going to play a par 5 again, but the mounds are gone and they are not putting them back.  

[Michael Dugger]

If given the opportunity, I'd prefer to play Valhalla first.

[Art Roselle]

Mike,
I did not mean to imply that Valhalla is not a good venue.  In fact, I think it is quite a good venue for a tour event and the course allows for low scoring if a player is "on", but a lot of opportunities for mistakes too.  I will be interested to see how it plays next year because they seem to have made it much harder, which is too bad.  Tiger and Bob May had an amazing duel in the last PGA and I don't think anyone minded that they were both -18.   Making it harder may just make it less exciting and worse (especially for a match play event like the Ryder Cup).  Faldo and Azinger played out there together a few months ago and both commented that they were too old and short to really play it at that length.  I think both shot about 85.  That seems a little ridiculous.

[Nick Pozaric]

Ill try to make a few comments on some of the earlier posts.6 was lengthened by 80 yards by moving the green back.  New tees were only added on 10 and 17 during the renovation.  #7 split fairway was only closed during the 96 PGA and open during the '00 PGA.  #2 was played as a par 4 in the 04 SPGA and the green was re-contoured to make it more playable as a par 4.  Faldo and Azinger both did play there during a media day and neither finished the round due to rain.  After the media day 3 more greens were recontoured.  The geens were rolling at 12+ and they found out there werent enough usable pin locations at those speeds.  Here are some good photos of 7 taken after the renovations
http://legacyeditorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/details_pop.aspx?iid=77200527&cdi=0

http://legacyeditorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/details_pop.aspx?iid=77200488&cdi=0

This picture is of 6 green.  The green used to be below the g in images and now was moved back 80 yards.  Nickalus liked doing this because it was one hole where you could restrict the players t-shot and have them hit something other than a mid or short iron to a par 4 green
http://legacyeditorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/details_pop.aspx?iid=77200382&cdi=0

[Mike Mosely]

Great photos...except for the getty images logo...looking at all these places where he's dictating distance with water, I'm of two minds about it.  On one hand, it's dictatorial..on the other hand, what other way would there be to do it besides a deep bunker and doesn't it inject temptationh into the mix and an "eagle-or-double" bit of adventure?

That being said, I think it looks fake as hell.

[Nick Pozaric]

Mike, its funny that you mention that it looks fake because they only work they did was build the dam that goes all the way across in the middle and dug out by the green.  The falls where it narrows is all natural along with the ground underneath the water is all rock.  The entire shape was unmodified from its original form except where it was dug out by the green.

[Pete Lavallee]

Sorry to come late to the party Mike. Torrey South does polarize, I believe to the degree that most people want the Open played on a course they've longed to play on; anyone can play Torrey and frankly the waiting line is not that long.

The original South course was a long hitters paradise, 7 par 4's in excess of 430 yards and all par 5's reachable at less than 530 yards. Of course this was before the ProV1 era. Now at 7500 yards the course is not long for Tour Pros, the longest approach shot might have them hit 5 iron into the 503 yard par 4 12th. Tiger can reach the 620 yard par 5 9th in 2, so length is not really the issue.

Consider this, the changes were started after the Jr. World Tournament in Sept. and finished by the end of the year. The course grew in during Jan. and they held the Buick there in Feb. So Rees had all of 3 months to do the work; how are you going to get all the fine details right with so little time allotted? Frankly it appears that 18 green were dropped in via CAD and a few back tees added, for the price of $3.2MM. None of the new greens really tie in with the surrounds; they could be located almost anywhere else in the country; and probably are. The 3 holes that were moved to the canyon edge (3,4,&14) are indeed a vast improvement over the originals.

No recontouring of the undulation free fairways was attempted; the site is red clay capped with a 6 inch layer of top soil. It would have been a real chore to scrap away the top soil, recountour them and then replace the top soil. Several posters questioned why some recontouring wasn't attempted; I suspect this to be the reason.

But Torrey usually produces a worthy Champion; the winners list is a virtual who's who of golf: Tiger, Jack, Watson, Weiskopf, Player, Miller, Stadler, Michelson, Palmer, Olazabol, Faldo, Love and yes even John Daly. We've seen a few exciting finishes over the last few years, I suspect we might see one again come June.

[Jay Flemma]

bump...since it's ryder week.  Hiya, Mose!  How's Boston?  Can you chime in on the Myopia thread?

[John Kavanaugh]

Paging Barney....paging Barney....

He'll tell you like it is at Torrey..

I have played and love them both.  Gotta hope that Ike doesn't end up raining on the Ryder parade.

[Mike Mosely]

bump...since it's ryder week.  Hiya, Mose!  How's Boston?  Can you chime in on the Myopia thread?

Hey Jay:

Can't help ya on Myopia or Valhalla.  I have played Black Rock and CCN though.  Those are great for the boston area.

[BVince]

I am another person only capable of commenting on one of the courses.  I played Valhalla in 2005 and enjoyed the course very much. 

I think the strong holes of the course are the par 5s.  I liked hole 2 and hole 18.  The 18th hole deserves far more credit than it gets due its strategic option.  I stepped on the tee and assumed that I could make a heroic carry over and cut off some of the pond on the right.  I crushed a long, high, and straight drive only to watch it fall about two feet short of perfection, thereby crushing my spirits. 

The par 3s were all good holes.  The par 4s had a couple of remarkable holes and a few good holes.  I liked 4, 6, 13, and 17.  All were very good and memorable.

The greensites were well conditioned with interesting contours.  The chipping areas are complex.  In my opinion, the bunkering was great, strategically placed, and had good depth.  Good ambiance.  Wish they could do something with the powerlines that disrupted the expansive front 9 views.

[Steve Kline]

I played Valhalla this summer and enjoyed the course. I agree the par 5s were the best holes. The 2nd had an interesting second shot. I got scared when going for the green and played to far right. Was just in the rough pin high and struggled to make par. Wish I would have tried the alternate fairway on 7. Like the double dogleg 10th. There can be some interesting strategy on the second shot depending on the pin location. Unfortunately the wind was dead into us on 18 so even though the pin was on the right I couldn't reliably reach the right fairway. The 6th hole was horrible. I played one up from the tips (I'm a plus 3) and the hole was driver and a 3-wood or 5-wood. There was no way to hit any less than that because of creek to the right of the fairway. The member I played with hated the new hole and said most members despise it. It is a really, really bad hole. All of the new greens (6, 8, 11, and 16) are awful in my opinion. They stand out so much from the rest of the course it's like having Andy Warhol fix up the Mona Lisa. 16 was the worst as it had about 4 or 5 distinct tiers on a hole that required a 3 iron. My favorite par 4 was #15. Par 3s were pretty similar to me except for #8.

[Kenny Baer]

I can only comment on TP; it is a very medicore golf course on very AWESOME piece of property.

Every hole is so bland; long par 4 circular flat green; next hole go in the other direction and do the exact same thing.

I played it before the renovation but can not imagine it being a better golf course after "The Open Dr." fixed it up. 

What makes courses good tournament courses is if the players playing in the tournament are playing well and the outcome is in doubt until the final putt. 

To the average viewer watching Tiger battle it out down the stretch with anyone is exciting, double the excitement if he is battling through an injury, Rocco, etc...That is what made the US Open this year at TP so exciting, it had nothing to do with the golf course. 

I did like what they did with the par 4, I think 15 moving up the tee.  Even though that was a trick, that hole is just like every other hole at Torrey they just played a trick by saying we are going to tee off from the Lady's tee.  18 is an okay risk/reward par 5.

Valhalla on TV plays much better and looks like a much better golf course; I know first hand that TP is very very average.

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